I'm no expert as I've never had to go down that route but my experience is that ECU's are pretty much bomb proof though it's possible for them to fail. I recall reading that numbers don't necessarily have to match as long as they came out of the same model of car with the same revision, engine and spec. I wouldn't try an ECU set from a facelift car into a pre facelift or vice versa.

It's up to the OP which way he wants to play it but I'm very suspicious of people who suggest one of the most expensive of the possible solutions but then say it may not work. They don't know what is wrong and are making sure they don't get stung if their guess is wrong.

If the company who checked the ECU say that the dry joints are on a part of the circuit that has nothing to do with fuel delivery then I'd be reluctant to replace it. They have the schematics and data sheets for the ECU and will know if the fuel delivery would be affected.

Personally I would be looking for a second opinion from somewhere that has a good reputation. I will always use a local back street garage within walking distance of my house for repairs that I can't undertake myself. He has been in the same location for years, always has cars in for work and most important - he has pride in his work. He cares more about his reputation, and returning customers than making a quick profit at the customers expense.

 

A proper ECU remanufacturer will have an engine simulator that will fully test the ECU and they will also put their money where their mouth is which is what I do when I make a diagnosis. Never dealt with these people personally but they have been around for quite a while and seem to know what they are talking about, anyone who can't gaurantee a repair obviously doesn't know what they are doing, why not give them a ring and talk to them BBA reman. ABS, ecu's, throttle bodies, air mass meters, MFD and catalytic converters best of luck. If you want to gamble with second hand equip you will need A BSI, engine ECU and key from the same vehicle but you will be stuck with the mileage that was on the donor vehicle and the numbers on the BSI should match the BSI on your car and an the companion engine ECU should also match the engine and transmission fitted, maybe Storeman or Reliable406 will correct me about the number match as I'm not too sure how critical that is.

 

Yes I understand that
I just mentioned the guarantee etc as someone said on here you could get a bad ecu when buying second hand.

I think I might just get the ecu tested somewhere else myself.

Cheers

Adi

 

Those that give a guarantee for the ECU are only guaranteeing the ECU will work - they aren't guaranteeing it will sort out your particular problem which may not be down to a faulty ECU. It may well be the ECU that is causing the issue but it is just as likely nothing to do with the ECU. You need to be sure it is the ECU or get a guarantee that if it doesn't sort it out they will put the original back on and only charge you labour before shelling out that kind of money.

 

Hi guys.

Yes, thank you renegade I actually had a conversation with the guy earlier regarding the process you explained and he said everything was fine which is what led him to believe the ecu was the culprit.

He also said he can't guarantee it as the ecu repair/testing company have said, although there are some dry joints on the board and they can repair these, they won't guarantee it will fix the issue as the parts that need work are not to do with the fuel injectors. Someone said on here that there aren't separate parts of an ecu that do each job but I didn't challenge him with this as don't want to come off as rude etc.

He's recommending I buy a second hand ecu & bsi etc as the ecu testing/repair company won't guarantee that the repair will fix the issue. But then he won't guarantee that this will fix the issue as the ecu test doesn't correspond with what he thought!

I know you said not to go down the second hand ecu route but I have seen some that give a guarantee and there on ebay so would have eBay buyer protection. Would this be a viable option? Is it worth spending another £60 for another ecu test somewhere else? If I do get a s/h ecu do I need the clocks or just ecu, bsi and key fob?

Thanks as always.

Adi

 

Sounds like the all too familiar scenario of let's change parts at the owners expense until we fix it.

 

As per my previous post I have outlined what an autoelectrician should do. Guy you spoke to wouldn't have the equipment to test the ECU itself properly which is why he can't gaurantee that a replacement ECU will cure it. There is no harm in politely telling him that you would like a second opinion as he can't gaurantee a fix. Approx what part of the country do you live in and I will see if there is anyone in your locality that can diagnose this properly for you. TBH if the guy is getting defensive then there is probably something he is not telling you.

 

Ok guys, I spoke to the guy at the garage today and explained I'm thinking of taking the car to an auto electrician and he said his background is as an auto electrician and he has done the tests that any autof electrician would do and that is why he thinks that the ecu would be the culprit.

I asked if that's why he thinks that why won't he say wether a repaired/replaced ecu would fix the car. He then said about the ecu test not showing any problems on "that part of the circuitry" and therefore won't guarantee or even say Wether it is likely that this would fix the car!

Is this guy having me on or what? Is it normal for a mechanic to do the necessary diagnostic work, come to the conclusion that the ecu is bad and then say that a repaired ecu might fix the problem but can't guarantee?

Hope someone can advise on this as don't want to annoy the guy but I also don't want to be had!

Cheers guys

Adi

 

Please do, Peugeot main agents won't help you in this case as Reliable406 says they will just fire parts at, at Pug prices, starting with the ECU, that's if they're interested. There are no specific components in an ECU that determine injector duration this is done by a computation of the ECU inputs and mapped data held within the ECU. The first job should be to check the ECU has a clean power supply, inc the earth then check each input for a correct clean signal. This is what you use a scope for. If all signals are present and correct then the output circuits need to be checked if they are within tolerance then the ECU is faulty and needs to be sent to a properly equiped company for testing. ECU testing is quite technical and few places have the necessary equipment. All sounds quite involved but an experienced person should acheived the in car examination within an hour or much less depending on access. It does sound like an ECU problem but without being able to examine the car it would be a guess at this stage. I wouldn't advise going down the route of reclaimed units as you may just buy yourself more problems it would be better to have the existing unit reconed and at least you will have a gaurantee.

 

Thanks renegade

I did actually speak to an auto electrician yesterday and he said I could book it in with him to have a look next week so I think il probably do that before the last resort of peugeot main dealer!

Cheers

Adi

 

The so called test results don't make a lot of sense to me, sounds like they have just checked it over with a meter rather than putting it on a test rig. £300 sounds like a price that covers it being remaned by a proper company and they're putting a handling fee on the top. This comes back to the meter and scope which would determine whether it is the ECU or not unfortunately if there isn't a garage with the releavant skills local to you I don't know what to suggest, maybe speak to an autoelectrician as it sounds like you're local Pug people are stuck if the diagnostics don't work. The old skills are far more accurate than the diagnostics its a question of finding someone with them and probably an autoelectrician or fuel injection specialist may be able to help.

 

Peugeot will simply keep fitting parts at your expense till it is fixed or you are skint

 

Ok thanks for your help. I may have to take it to peugeot to see if they can help as the garage I have it at are basically saying try the ecu repair or replacement (but can't guarantee it will work) or take it to peugeot.

Cheers

Adi

 

I agree with storeman £300 is way over the top ECU always gets the blame but rarely IS the problem.

Replacement ecu set would not need the same numbers as long as its from the same engine type and same spec of car but I also agree its unlikely to help.

Diagnostics don't always pinpoint specific problems especially things that are intermittent personally I would be looking at wiring harness first before ecu

 

Thanks for your input storeman.

I agree with you about the ecu but the mechanic at the garage said he can't see any other reason why the injectors are staying open for so long and also the pulse to the coil packs stops when the engine is cranking. He said he has done all the tests he can and it all points to the ecu!

I'm really stuck as to what to do at the minute. Absolute nightmare.

Also, the serial numbers for the ecu I found don't match the one on my car and I can't find any that do at the min so that option may be out of the question anyway.

Thank again for your time.

Adi

 

My thoughts are that if the ECU isn't showing signs of being the cause of your issue then replacing it isn't going to make any difference.

£300 to recondition the ECU seems over the top to me. If all that is wrong with it is a few dry joints then I can't see how that would warrant a £300 bill (but then I've never opened up an ECU).

As for what to do next, I can't say as I've no experience

 

Hi guys, finally got a bit of an update on this. Although not yet resolved but here's the progress so far.....

Had the car diagnosed by a local independant peugeot specialist. He discovered that car is over fuelling. He said the injector (or something to do with fuelling I don't remember exactly) is opening for 35 milliseconds and it should only be 15 at a very maximum. He also said when this occurs the pulse for the coil packs stop. He said he's done all the testing he can do and he thinks there may be a fault with the ecu so he sent that away to be tested.

The test results show that although there are some dry solder joints, there doesnt seem to be any issues in the parts that deal with fuelling so they don't think this is the cause of the problem.

The guy at my garage has said I can get the ecu reconditioned for £300 which will fix the dry solder joints but he can't say Wetherby this will fix it as there doesnt seem to be a fault in the ecu which points towards the over fuelling problem. Other than that I can take it to the main peugeot dealer for more diagnostic work :-(

I have actually found a second hand matching ecu,bsi and key for £300 and can get that fitted for £100. Just as another option.

I'm pretty stuck as to what to do for the best here guys so was wondering what you guys think would be the best route to take from here?

Be glad when this one is put to bed!

Cheers guys

Adi

 

I agree with both of you but sometimes faults are at that level and if someone is unable to use this equipment then unfortunately they have to take it to someone that can. My perspective is that cars usually turn up on my doorstep when all diagnostic software has failed to determine the problem so I only really see the basket cases and I haven't found any that can't be fixed. Problem I have is that the motor industry goes out of its way to protect its investment from those of us who see how simple it all is. Yes Storeman I remember timing lights still have a couple and dwell meters but TBH I've never used a Krypton tune used to build my own units to do the job and yes Reliable406 ECU's are getting better at logging codes but they still don't log all, must admit I'm surprised that the phase difference isn't logged but a lot of it comes down to how cheap the firmware is to develop.

 

Yes there are cheap & small scopes with an adequate resolution for working on cars BUT if someone owns one but doesn't know how to use it then it is as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

As for you being 'old school' using a krypton tuner, When I was in the motor repair trade, krypton tuners hadn't been developed. A strobe timing light was state of the art.

 

Not all problems log fault codes though this is the point I made earlier with non starting faults live data IS much more useful in diagnosis in fact with HDIs its essential.

For example if cam sensor is 1 tooth out it WILL show in live data but DOES NOT log a fault
low fuel pressure will also not log a fault but can be seen in live data

As for scoping I too come from an electronic back ground and do know how to use a scope BUT most people do not so its not really worth discussing here as it would simply ad another layer of confusion

I believe planet/diagbox does actually have a scope function.

 

Hi adi, no Peugeot Planet is quite an easy and simple program to use and any faults logged by the ECU would show easily on it. It is a pity that it couldn't be used to its full capacity as Storeman said as it may have given a better Idea about the situation but as it didn't log a fault code this is why I would question sensor signals, wiring or the ECU itself. Without being too technical there are situations where faulty wiring can cause distorted signals or electrical interference that confuses the ECU and causes the problem you have described, that is where I was coming from with the scope and meter is to check the ECU was getting a clean supply voltage and earth as well as clean signals. The fact that it fires at all would suggest it was unlocked but PP would have been useful to confirm this. Would be interested to know what the garage says as it is so difficult to try and make a diagnosis without testing the vehicle because of the complexities involved. It could even be another ECU causing the engine ECU grief.

 

Hi storeman I agree with what you say about the number of people who could use a scope their availability is now a lot greater than it was and you can pick up a scope about the size of a smart phone for around fifty quid which is good enough for car management systems. As for waveforms, you can find them all on the internet, in terms of sensor technology cars usual use very few senesor types and that goes for all manufacturers as they always like cheap parts. There is nothing on a car that hasn't been taken from industrial process and control which is my background and an ECU is only a PLC in a different guise. Scopes and meters will prove to a large extent if the ECU is functioning properly because if it isn't Peugeot Planet will not be able to help as it is really only a terminal program and relies on the ECU to act as the computer. If the cam/crank are out of phase it should flag an error code to this effect as most vehicles do. I don't profess to be an expert on Peugeot's but I have extensive experience with management systems and they all have similar firmware depending on the engine set up. I tend to get involved with the type of problems that manufacturers software can't diagnose and a meter and scope are the only way of sorting it. Going back twenty years ago or more, most garages had scopes built into the Krpton tune kit now they seem to rely on hand held diagnostics. Sorry I come from the old school where you went back to first principles for diagnosis because plug in diagnostics were not available.

 

I've closed that other thread to try and keep the advice in one place, here is a link to it incase you feel the need

http://www.peugeotforums.com/forums.../forums/general-discussion-2/replaced-coolant-temp-sensor-but-no-change-157321/

 

Planet may not be the be all and end all but if you cannot work through planet properly you are likely going to totally lost with a meter and definitely lost trying to make any sense of a scope waveform from an ECU.

Planet could have proved the ecu wasn't locked by the immobiliser system and would have shown cam / crank synch as well as a sufficient cranking speed and fuel pressure.

None of this information is available so there is no way to definitively rule out something a lot more simple than trying to scope an ECU. How many people actually know what waveforms they should see and from which connector and pin these waveform should appear. Even more to the point, How many members own or have access to an oscilloscope ? Can't be too many.

 

Hi Renegade,

Yes I agree it is becoming confusing now. I did put a link to this thread in the other one but.....

OK so from the beginning.....

We have a little occasional problem with the engine idle on cold starts in the morning where it would run a little rough unless you gave it some more revs. Then about 2 weeks ago my other half tried started the car but every time she did so it would cut out completely unless she gave it some more revs. I got to the car, gave it a little drive and it seemed to clear the problem as it was idling and running fine after this. Then right after this on the way home we got all the signals saying the car was overheating so I towed it home.

The following day I discovered it wasn't overheating but was in fact giving a false high temp reading so I replaced the temp sensor and also changed the spark plugs while I was at it. This didn't fix the false overheating problem so I reset the bsi as per the instructions I found on here.

This also didn't help so I then decided to drive the car and see how it drove etc. I got 3 miles down the road when I got an ecu warning and an anti pollution warning followed by the car cutting out on me leaving me stranded on a dual carriageway!

Got towed home and had non PP diagnostics run on it the next day which showed a fault for rpm sensor so I replaced this but still won't start. it fires briefly but just won't quite start up.

I then had the guy come and run PP on it which at first showed a fault for the rpm sensor but this may he due to the fact that I tried to start the car with the rpm sensor unplugged to see if there was any difference. He cleared the fault and rescanned it but there were no faults. I don't know if it was due to the guy not using planet properly or weather there is actually no faults now showing. Im not sure if there's a certain way to get the fault codes to come up if the engine won't run but what he did was unplug the equipment and try to start a couple of times then plugged it back in again.

I'm towing it to an independent Peugeot specialist this evening so hopefully will get it diagnosed and repaired in the next couple of days.

Thank you once again to everyone for their help. It is greatly appreciated.

If anyone has any thoughts do let me know as would be good to see if it Tally's up with what the garage say so I know I'm not being had!

Cheers guys