[Ian M Davis]

This is very interesting...

When I spoke to the ECU company they had no more EDC16C3's in stock but said something along the lines of 'we'll reflash another similar ECU model with the same software/versioning from their backups to make it compatible and operate identically to the EDC16C3'...

As we know, the current one in the car is EDC16C34 - specifically 0 281 013 872 which was running fine.

When I check this reference on carlabimmo.com it comes up against the EDC16C3 from a 2010 3008 1.6 HDi - listed in the link you shared.

If I search for EDC16C34 they only list one tested car - Citroen Nemo:

https://carlabimmo.com/ecu_type/info/182

When I then check the same 0281... reference on ecuconnection.co.uk, they show it against an EDC16C34:

Peugeot / Citroen ECU 0281013332 | 9664257580 | EDC16C34 | Plug+Play IMMO OFF - FREE RUNNING Buy Now

Free Advice - Taken from a running vehicle and dry stored - Good working order and tested - Reliable delivery to UK, EU and worldwide.

ecuconnection.co.uk

I can totally understand the issue with backward compatibility so it will be interesting to see what comes through in the post.

Regardless, thanks for the steer Ian, I've just emailed the ECU company for some clarity and to try and 'steer' them toward sending the right one through 🤞

Really appreciate all the help you and Red are providing, learning lots as we go

The ECU has two memories EEPROM and Flash. The EEPROM contains the immobiliser data. The Flash memory has software that is specific to the car model. I know of a case where a ECU with identical part numbers to the original ECU was fitted to a 2.0HDi 308cc. Diagbox normally recognises the ECU but in this case it had to be told which ECU was fitted. The car started okay but there were performance issues until the Flash memory was rewritten with the software for the exact model. Diagbox then recognised the ECU and there were no performance issues I don't know why it mattered.

 

[sjuggins]

The ECU has two memories EEPROM and Flash. The EEPROM contains the immobiliser data. The Flash memory has software that is specific to the car model. I know of a case where a ECU with identical part numbers to the original ECU was fitted to a 2.0HDi 308cc. Diagbox normally recognises the ECU but in this case it had to be told which ECU was fitted. The car started okay but there were performance issues until the Flash memory was rewritten with the software for the exact model. Diagbox then recognised the ECU and there were no performance issues I don't know why it mattered.

So what I assume the ECU company is doing is perhaps rewriting the EEPROM to overcome/bypass the immobiliser data but not doing anything with the Flash? This would make sense as to why on the current EDC16C34 ECU we were seeing DPF faults when there isn't one in the car.

Looks like I will need to get Diagbox regardless as will be quicker and more beneficial for me to learn how to reflash the ECU if needed.

 

[Ian M Davis]

So what I assume the ECU company is doing is perhaps rewriting the EEPROM to overcome/bypass the immobiliser data but not doing anything with the Flash? This would make sense as to why on the current EDC16C34 ECU we were seeing DPF faults when there isn't one in the car.

Looks like I will need to get Diagbox regardless as will be quicker and more beneficial for me to learn how to reflash the ECU if needed.

You will need a special tool such as a KTag to change the Flash memory. I think the Peugeot tool (Lexia 3 with Diagbox) can update the software if the existing ECU is configured for the car but even to do that you need to buy tokens from Peugeot, download the latest version of Diabox from Peugeot servicebox and then connect to the Peugeot server.

 

[sjuggins]

You will need a special tool such as a KTag to change the Flash memory. I think the Peugeot tool (Lexia 3 with Diagbox) can update the software if the existing ECU is configured for the car but even to do that you need to buy tokens from Peugeot, download the latest version of Diabox from Peugeot servicebox and then connect to the Peugeot server.

OK, thanks for clarifying Ian. Sounds like it's quite involved.

Following on from your comment of buying a matched set, I looked on ebay and there is a full set (only 1 from I can see) for a 9HX that seems to have everything needed:

Pardon our interruption...

Do you think this would work? It's from a 308SW. I don't know the mileage but could ask.

Just thinking ahead in case the next ECU also does not work and/or we're suspecting a potentially faulty BSI etc. Might it be a more simple/cost-effective route to replace everything?

 

[Ian M Davis]

OK, thanks for clarifying Ian. Sounds like it's quite involved.

Following on from your comment of buying a matched set, I looked on ebay and there is a full set (only 1 from I can see) for a 9HX that seems to have everything needed:

Pardon our interruption...

Do you think this would work? It's from a 308SW. I don't know the mileage but could ask.

Just thinking ahead in case the next ECU also does not work and/or we're suspecting a potentially faulty BSI etc. Might it be a more simple/cost-effective route to replace everything?

Looks good. I think that runs a very good chance of working but may need some reconfiguration with diagbox for all BSI functions to work properly. There is a lot of extra parts you don't need. Some sellers include the locks and ignition switch but you don't need them. All you do is move the PCB from the key to you existing key case and blade. I am not sure what the BSC does apparently it called a comfort control module.

 

[sjuggins]

Looks good. I think that runs a very good chance of working but may need some reconfiguration with diagbox for all BSI functions to work properly. There is a lot of extra parts you don't need. Some sellers include the locks and ignition switch but you don't need them. All you do is move the PCB from the key to you existing key case and blade. I am not sure what the BSC does apparently it called a comfort control module.

Thanks Ian as always.

I might take a punt on it as I can always return or sell it on, or keep it as spares for the future, considering how sensitive French (I know Bosch is German lol) electronics seem to be

 

[Ian M Davis]

I think the unit labelled BSC on eBay is a trailer fuse box (BSR1)

 

[sjuggins]

I think the unit labelled BSC on eBay is a trailer fuse box (BSR1)

Thanks Ian, just one thing re mileage. If the unit is higher, can I overwrite the BSI at all so it doesn't increase my cluster mileage?

 

[Ian M Davis]

Thanks Ian, just one thing re mileage. If the unit is higher, can I overwrite the BSI at all so it doesn't increase my cluster mileage?

No that's a specialist job. The guy with the 308 cc had the same problem. Apparently he was able find a specialist who called and corrected the mileage.

 

[sjuggins]

No that's a specialist job. The guy with the 308 cc had the same problem. Apparently he was able find a specialist who called and corrected the mileage.

OK thanks, I've purchased the kit just in case. Couldn't find out VIN or Mileage unfortunately as the salvage place destroyed the vehicle a while back.

 

[sjuggins]

Angle grinder = 1
Alloy wheel = nil point

Looks drastic but transpires the alloy was cracked, albeit still holding air. The cost to have mobile welder out was £50 and cost to refurb wheel was £35… I can get a used one for £30 so decided to just cut the bugger off in 15 minutes.

I also tried several locking wheel nut removal tools all with no success, just made the bolt worse. Might have been easier if the first extractor tool hadn’t of snapped in the hole I drilled 🤬

Anyway, job done. Now to check the timing

 

[Ian M Davis]

I am intrigued by you wheel bolt problem. I was looking at what is left of the wheel's hub and it looks like a bolt is still in it. Once you cut wheel off how did you get the bolt out?

 

[sjuggins]

I am intrigued by you wheel bolt problem. I was looking at what is left of the wheel's hub and it looks like a bolt is still in it. Once you cut wheel off how did you get the bolt out?

You can't really see in the picture, happy to take more if you want...

A full rundown of what I tried... a bit lengthy but hopefully helps somebody in the future.

Basically, the problem was the original locking key was a lug-based design, with 4 small pins - 3 around one side, and 1 on the opposing side... problem was the one on its own had sheared off previously. Most likely when they were trying to remove the actual locking wheel nut the space the lug inserted into was all mangled so there was nothing to grip/bite into, it just kept slipping off. I couldn't even order another key as the receptor for the lugs was trashed.

Similar to this one:

I first tried a normal extractor set/socket that bites onto what is left of the bolt head... this just sheared the bolt flush with the rest of the collar.
I then tried to drill into what was left of the wheel nut, this worked fine and I created a nice 10mm by approx 15-20mm deep hole. I then used a special extractor socket that inserts into the hole and bites just like a normal extractor socket, only on the inside, not the outside... the socket snapped with the extraction piece left buried in the hole but now protruding a jagged piece so I couldn't easily redrill. Plus it was super tough steel, albeit quite brittle it seems.

At this point, I was now screwed as no socket would work, nothing to grip onto. I couldn't redrill either as the drill kept slipping off centre.

I had two options weld or cut the wheel off, I opted for the latter for the reasons stated previously. Here's what I did:

1. Cut all the spokes of the rim to remove the alloy - took 3 Wickes 115mm metal cutting discs, thin ones, quite easy really
2. I then cut a V shape above where the lock nut was - down between two of the spokes, one on each side of the nut. This cut finished in the wheel nut hole
3. I cut as deep as I could behind the nut, into the alloy wheel mating surface, parallel to the hub face - about 1.5" deep
4. Hit this section out with a lump hammer which left me access to the bolt, crucially I could now cut into the nut itself
5. Cut a little V into the bolt and with a long cold chisel hammered it to loosen the bolt - this took quite a lot of force
6. As the bolt turned a quarter of the way, I cut another little V out and repeated the hammering process, had to cut 4 little V's into the bolt in the end
7. Kept hammering the bolt to loosen it until I could get it out with my fingers
8. Transpires the bolt was seized/corroded and had likely been done up with an impact wrench too 🤦‍♂️

I had of course tried hammering it out before cutting but due to the depth of the bolt hole, the restricted chisel angle, and nothing to really chisel into, I kept slipping off. I really needed to be able to chisel down into the bolt parallel to the face of the wheel.

All in all, once I knew my approach, took me 15-20 mins.

 

[RedSector]

Another option is disconnecting the battery, safe the vehicle for welding (protect the mag etc), and then weld a nut on and then undo. Then proceed to throw the wheel lock nut, and never use them again.

All it takes is one noob with a rattle gun set to over torque, and they become a nightmare.

 

[sjuggins]

...Then proceed to throw the wheel lock nut, and never use them again.

I've already ditched them all

 

[Ian M Davis]

Basically, the problem was the original locking key was a lug-based design, with 4 small pins - 3 around one side, and 1 on the opposing side... problem was the one on its own had sheared off previously. Most likely when they were trying to remove the actual locking wheel nut the space the lug inserted into was all mangled so there was nothing to grip/bite into, it just kept slipping off. I couldn't even order another key as the receptor for the lugs was trashed.

Similar to this one:
View attachment 109491

I first tried a normal extractor set/socket that bites onto what is left of the bolt head... this just sheared the bolt flush with the rest of the collar.
I then tried to drill into what was left of the wheel nut, this worked fine and I created a nice 10mm by approx 15-20mm deep hole. I then used a special extractor socket that inserts into the hole and bites just like a normal extractor socket, only on the inside, not the outside... the socket snapped with the extraction piece left buried in the hole but now protruding a jagged piece so I couldn't easily redrill. Plus it was super tough steel, albeit quite brittle it seems.

I surprised that system ever worked. There appears to be hardly any contact surface so it doesn't surprise me the lugs sheared off.

I guess the extracter was made from the same grade of steel thread taps. Some of the precision plumbing I worked on for satellite communication antennas needed deep narrow slots with square corners. We used a spark eroder to do that. It was a great machine for removing broken taps. Apparently they were invented in the USSR when they couldn't get industrial diamonds.

 

[sjuggins]

Bit of an update on today's activities...

2nd Replacement ECU turned up - swapped it in, same problem as 1st replacement - No comms with ECU and no crank at all.

Collected the complete 9HX replacement kit, and swapped the cluster, key, BSI, ECU, and BSM - just to be 100% sure as the salvage man said the car was scrapped due to a mechanical engine failure, he was confident the electrics were OK... also didn't want to corrupt the mileage on any of the original components.

The car immediately cranked
We have comms with the ECU and I've scanned for faults (see below)
Managed to get the VIN as the reg was written on the back of the ECU

Checked for Cam/Crank sync - still nothing so I suspect something relating to the timing is awry, or there are more wiring gremlins at play

Faults captured (cleared everything first):

ALL Captured under ECU Section (ones in bold were there on Day 1 of testing):

• P0193 - Diesel pressure signal circuit open or short to positive, or value too high
• P0122 - EGR throttle position repeat signal short circuit to ground or value too low
• P1728 - CAN communication Torque information invalid
• P0113 - Intake air temperature signal (flowmeter) circuit open or short to positive, or value too high
• P0223 - Signal 1 of accelerator pedal circuit open or short to positive, or value too high
• P0228 - Signal 2 of accelerator pedal circuit open or short to positive
• P1351 - Pre-heating relay circuit relay supplied and plugs never supplied

Captured with ABS/ESP Section:

• U1208 - Communication fault with the engine ECU or with the drivetrain interface ECU data invalid

Remote locking doesn't work but think that is an easy fix?

Going to visually inspect the timing belt properly now and check tensioners etc. will look to set timing properly too if out.

 

[RedSector]

Remote locking doesn't work but think that is an easy fix?

See if this useful

 

[sjuggins]

More updates regarding the timing belt...

Cause of the slack belt, the tensioner fitted totally improperly. Timing marks line up (thankfully) so not sure this is contributing towards the no start:

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Will sort this out tomorrow in the daylight...

Just a thought, could the pulley/timing pinion itself be a cause of the crank sensor not picking up a signal? My understanding is the sensor reads the magnetic track on the pulley/pinion itself - are these common to fail? How would I be able to tell, any visual cues?

 

[Ian M Davis]

More updates regarding the timing belt...

Cause of the slack belt, the tensioner fitted totally improperly. Timing marks line up (thankfully) so not sure this is contributing towards the no start:

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Will sort this out tomorrow in the daylight...

Just a thought, could the pulley/timing pinion itself be a cause of the crank sensor not picking up a signal? My understanding is the sensor reads the magnetic track on the pulley/pinion itself - are these common to fail? How would I be able to tell, any visual cues?

I looked up the part number for the crankshaft timing pinion (0805 E5) for an example see https://www.auto-doc.ie/car-parts/oem/0805e5 It is just a sprocket with a slotted plate timing ring. If the crankshaft sensor is in the wrong position or if there is a lot of metallic debris there it may have an issue.

It would be worth checking the voltages at the crankshaft sensor plug again. I had concerns that the signal and power connections to the sensor were interchanged so I wonder if someone has worked on the wiring. For example it is not that difficult to swaps pins in most plugs. RedSector and I know of a case where a mechanic when fitting a replacement ABS decided he needed to change the plug as well after that the car wouldn't start because a CAN bus connection was reversed.