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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Vacuum Solenoid EGR Fault ***FIXED***

2004 307 HDI 110 Estate RHS.

Hi,
I'll try to keep this short as I can.
PP2000 shows the EGR at 99% duty all the time even on idle, I have inspected the vacuum solenoid and found that with a tube connected to the inlet of the valve I can blow through to the outlet (where the EGR vac connects) with the car switched off and the electrical plug disconnected.

I thought the principle of operation was that the ECU would open the valve the required amount by chopping the voltage which would allow the vacuum to pass from inlet to outlet thus allowing the EGR to open.
When the voltage is cut the valve would close dumping the vacuum from the outlet port through the dump port at the lower end of the valve which would then allow the EGR to close.

If this principle is correct I can only assume the diaphragm in the valve is holed.
The reason I am checking if the principle is correct is because I have 2 valves (EGR and Turbo) which are acting the same way and with them both connected to the vacuum pipes there is hardy any vacuum on the other two valves.

Any Comments appreciated.

Regards
Slobbit
 

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right chap, do this, remove the solenoid. with a small length of hose on the out blow (middle), if you can feel air coming out of the top (vac) pipe then the solenoid is jiggered. part number for the 307 2L is 700964030 £42.00 each might be the same as yours, motor factors should be able to tell you.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
right chap, do this, remove the solenoid. with a small length of hose on the out blow (middle), if you can feel air coming out of the top (vac) pipe then the solenoid is jiggered. part number for the 307 2L is 700964030 £42.00 each might be the same as yours, motor factors should be able to tell you.
Thanks for the reply bribplumber,

I tried it from p1 to p2 and from p2 to p1 and could blow both ways but nothing out of the dump (lower) port.

P1= inlet
P2=outlet to device

Looks like they're knackered then!!!

There are two more solenoids looking from the front of the car over to the right side (or rear) of the engine, I think one is for the butterfly valve on the air inlet but not sure where the other on goes. Is this forth valve a special and different from the others and where does it go?

Regards
Slobbit
 

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on the 2L 307 you have 4 vacuum units,
lower grey connector = turbo
black far right = egr valve
middle right blue = intercooler butterfly
middle left blue = warm air butterfly
 

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2004 307 HDI 110 Estate RHS.

Hi,
I'll try to keep this short as I can.
PP2000 shows the EGR at 99% duty all the time even on idle, I have inspected the vacuum solenoid and found that with a tube connected to the inlet of the valve I can blow through to the outlet (where the EGR vac connects) with the car switched off and the electrical plug disconnected.

I thought the principle of operation was that the ECU would open the valve the required amount by chopping the voltage which would allow the vacuum to pass from inlet to outlet thus allowing the EGR to open.
When the voltage is cut the valve would close dumping the vacuum from the outlet port through the dump port at the lower end of the valve which would then allow the EGR to close.


If this principle is correct I can only assume the diaphragm in the valve is holed.
The reason I am checking if the principle is correct is because I have 2 valves (EGR and Turbo) which are acting the same way and with them both connected to the vacuum pipes there is hardy any vacuum on the other two valves.

Any Comments appreciated.

Regards
Slobbit
spot on chap..:thumb:
the engine ecu controls the electro valves by pulse width modulation / or open close ratio. either way its like a injection pulse. it permits accurate control of the air flow thought the valve to control the egr valve equally from 1% to 100% open.
Have a look at the measured air flow as when the egr is at 99% the air flow measured will drop very low and when egr is at @10% it will be high / normal. if the egr is closed and the valve is holed the air flow will never change. at idle this is.
you can manually get it to do this by using a midi vac on the egr valve or "t" in to the vacuum pump and use a spare long bit of hose to the egr. and watch the parameters / data.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
on the 2L 307 you have 4 vacuum units,
lower grey connector = turbo
black far right = egr valve
middle right blue = intercooler butterfly
middle left blue = warm air butterfly
I have just been out to do a reverse blow test on all the valves, I can blow easily back through the EGR solenoid but I can also blow back through the warm air butterfly solenoid but only very slightly.

The info you have supplied is extremely useful so thanks for that, there is just one thing that's bothering me I disconnected the vac side off of the EGR solenoid and ran pp2000 the EGR was still showing 99% but dropped to 5% when I blipped the throttle

Slobbit
 

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Discussion Starter #7
spot on chap..:thumb:
the engine ecu controls the electro valves by pulse width modulation / or open close ratio. either way its like a injection pulse. it permits accurate control of the air flow thought the valve to control the egr valve equally from 1% to 100% open.
Have a look at the measured air flow as when the egr is at 99% the air flow measured will drop very low and when egr is at @10% it will be high / normal. if the egr is closed and the valve is holed the air flow will never change. at idle this is.
you can manually get it to do this by using a midi vac on the egr valve or "t" in to the vacuum pump and use a spare long bit of hose to the egr. and watch the parameters / data.
Thanks Mastertech,
At least I'm on the right track, but I have just noticed another problem that may or may not be serious. I connected pp2000 tonight and when I went to interrogate the engine ECU PP2000 reported "incorrect ECU for Vehicle but hit f# if you still want to read ECU" so I hit the F# and it read the ECU ok.
I wonder if the ECU has been changed?

Slobbit
 

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there is just one thing that's bothering me I disconnected the vac side off of the EGR solenoid and ran pp2000 the EGR was still showing 99% but dropped to 5% when I blipped the throttle

Slobbit
this will show this as working as the ecu will control the pulse width for the valve as long as the electric is connected wether or not the vac is connected
 

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Thanks Mastertech,
At least I'm on the right track, but I have just noticed another problem that may or may not be serious. I connected pp2000 tonight and when I went to interrogate the engine ECU PP2000 reported "incorrect ECU for Vehicle but hit f# if you still want to read ECU" so I hit the F# and it read the ECU ok.
I wonder if the ECU has been changed?

Slobbit
That ole chesnut..lol.. no dont worry about it its a software thing in pps thought they would have fixed that by now well i guess they have in diag box... it did / does it on a few ecu's. what version have you got would advise updating it as if it i think 22.** they was a few problems in or around that version. get the last version before diagbox i think its v25 not 100% sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
That ole chesnut..lol.. no dont worry about it its a software thing in pps thought they would have fixed that by now well i guess they have in diag box... it did / does it on a few ecu's. what version have you got would advise updating it as if it i think 22.** they was a few problems in or around that version. get the last version before diagbox i think its v25 not 100% sure.
mastertech I am using PP2000 within Diagbox 6.01 I think the version of pp2000 is v47.

Slobbit
 

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So what is telling the ECU to provide 99% duty?
i think you're getting at why is it applied !!

i believe the answer you're looking for it that air flow measurement hasn't reduced nor has engine speed so more duty is applied to the egr also the air bypass butterfly will close to force egr cycling and if it says long enough then comes the fault codes .
The engine looks at just about every measurement in a split second and adjusts accordingly. the egr valve will be closed when off idle or under acceleration or under load and when the engine needs power or about to stall.


electronic egr valves have a internal measuring device so that the ecu can see how much its moved it. you can see this on parameters. eg 407 ones
 

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mastertech I am using PP2000 within Diagbox 6.01 I think the version of pp2000 is v47.

Slobbit
dont know then mate haven't used diag box much, how ever we all ways used to get that problem on various vehicles when i was at pug using the last of pps up to the point it changed to diagbox.
sounds to me they still havent fixed it
go into the engine ecu look in configuration and see what model it programmed for also chassis number.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
All,
I,m off down the breakers tomorrow with my piece of tube to do a reference blow solenoid tests on a few cars, if the tests show that I have some duff solenoids I'll purchase and replace.
I will post an update soon, there are several fault codes on this vehicle but I have to start somewhere. The next one to tackle will be the pre/post heat relay uncontrolled but supplied, glow plugs already checked and two changed but made no difference (possible relay fault).

I love a challenge and this is looking like it could be a good one.

Slobbit
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
dont know then mate haven't used diag box much, how ever we all ways used to get that problem on various vehicles when i was at pug using the last of pps up to the point it changed to diagbox.
sounds to me they still havent fixed it
go into the engine ecu look in configuration and see what model it programmed for also chassis number.
To be honest Mastertech as long as it reads the info I'm not worried now you've said that old chestnut, you have obviously seen this before so I think I have to concentrate on the faults and not to get side tracked. Actually there is something else you could help me out with if you worked for pug, can you tell me if all the four vacuum solenoids are all the same?

Slobbit
 

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To be honest Mastertech as long as it reads the info I'm not worried now you've said that old chestnut, you have obviously seen this before so I think I have to concentrate on the faults and not to get side tracked. Actually there is something else you could help me out with if you worked for pug, can you tell me if all the four vacuum solenoids are all the same?

Slobbit
truth is i think they are how ever its been a while, get it checked by some one with parts epc. i did have it but its on the dead laptop !! added a picture
 

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Discussion Starter #17
i think you're getting at why is it applied !!

i believe the answer you're looking for it that air flow measurement hasn't reduced nor has engine speed so more duty is applied to the egr also the air bypass butterfly will close to force egr cycling and if it says long enough then comes the fault codes .
The engine looks at just about every measurement in a split second and adjusts accordingly. the egr valve will be closed when off idle or under acceleration or under load and when the engine needs power or about to stall.


electronic egr valves have a internal measuring device so that the ecu can see how much its moved it. you can see this on parameters. eg 407 ones
Perhaps I should just paste the fault code I may be interpreting it incorrectly.
P0402
Powertrain: Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Excessive Detected

5. P0400
Powertrain: Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Malfunction

Slobbit
 

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Perhaps I should just paste the fault code I may be interpreting it incorrectly.
P0402
Powertrain: Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Excessive Detected

5. P0400
Powertrain: Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Malfunction

Slobbit
What did you read you fault codes with ?

Check for vacuum at EGR valve. Check for vacuum supply to solenoid valve and output from solenoid valve.
The control duty at 99% should be => Egr valve fully open.

In the pic i posted their is a air vacuum capsule on the front of the gear box they sometimes get leaks etc. causes all manner of probs
 

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Discussion Starter #19
truth is i think they are how ever its been a while, get it checked by some one with parts epc. i did have it but its on the dead laptop !! added a picture
Thanks for the drawing, looks like they are all the same all got the same item number on the drawing.:thumb:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
What did you read you fault codes with ?

Check for vacuum at EGR valve. Check for vacuum supply to solenoid valve and output from solenoid valve.
The control duty at 99% should be => Egr valve fully open.

In the pic i posted their is a air vacuum capsule on the front of the gear box they sometimes get leaks etc. causes all manner of probs
Already repaired the Vacuum tank, it had taken a knock and cracked around the securing bolt so glued it with epoxy resin. As already stated can blow though solenoid both ways when off but nothing from dump port. I will check for leaks in the vacuum pipes later today.

Thanks for your help today Mastertech I'm off to bed I'll keep this post updated with progress.
 
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