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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All,

The short version of my question is whether I should expect the shaft on the turbo of my 1.6hdi to turn freely by hand (although it does turn) and if it doesn't, will a good clean with something like innotec turbo clean do anything, or should I save £40 and put that towards a new cartridge or full turbo.

By way of background; my 307sw 1.6hdi (04) developed poor performance issues, very sluggish, no perceptible boost and maxing out at 65ish. Initially no warning lights, but after a bit more driving, EML and Anitpollution came on. PP showed low turbo pressure and overloaded FAP. I don't know which came first. When throttling the car with bonnet open, there was major exhaust leakage from around the turbo. This had already been sooted up before but was now caked. Decided to start with the obvious and took the fap off for a clean. It was completely blocked up. Took 4 cycles of the local jet wash to make any progress.

I haven't rebuilt yet so decided to look at turbo. The turbine side is completed sooted up, as you'd expect from what I described above. The shaft doesn't have any obvious play that might suggest the bearing has collapsed, but it is almost impossible to turn it by hand, hence my main question. Part of me optimistically thinks that the fap got blocked and has choked up the turbine, which could be solved by cleaning. But then it seems possible that the bearing is seized, in which case the £40 on insitu cleaning products would be better put towards replacing the cartridge or the whole turbo.

I suppose another option is to take the turbo off and try and clean it without spending money on the specialist products. However, I'm thinking that once I take the turbo off, I really need to be changing the oil feed pipe and going through the proper motions for a rebuild, such that I may as well spend £150 on the new cartridge. Cleaning is really only worth it if it can be down insitu without disconnecting from oil feed etc.

Anyway, opinions and help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers


John
 
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Have a look at why its happened first. Multiple failures are on the cards if you don't sort out the engine first. Usually the damage is already done and the engine is rubbish as its clogged up with carbon. All usually down to the servicing or lack of.

Sent from my GT-S5690
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for replying.

So am I right to assume that the shaft should turn freely?

Do you think it is unlikely that soot build up caused by a blocked FAP could be causing the turbo to stick and to fail to turn freely?

I've been reading up lots on the causes of turbo failure on these engines and see that the process of a turbo overhaul/change includes a fairly extensive work through of the oil feed, filter and supply. This seems primarily a labour intensive exercise so if it does look like turbo failure, then I'll be doing this in the hope of avoiding an immediate failure again.

Because I'm not getting the obvious 'wobbling shaft', I'm don't know that it is definitely turbo failure yet (depending on the answer to my question) I haven't even put the thing back together after cleaning the fap and tried it. At the same time I was doing a much needed oil change (this is almost certainly the cause as it is 5k overdue), but wanted to hold off filling up with £50+ of oil, only to find I would have to drain and dump it to do the turbo.

I might have to pony up and chuck some oil in to give it a go; just seems a waste of good oil, might need to get some cheap stuff just to test.


Cheers
 
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The FAP is probably blocked as a result of those engine management issues. Get a diagnostic check done first.

Sent from my GT-S5690
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Based on what you say, I'm coming to the conclusion that a turbo failure came first, followed by the sooting up of the FAP.

Something else has occurred me that is probably pertinent; I believe the oil was overfilled (Not naming any names.....but she is my better half). I'm thinking that the overfill might have caused over pressure in the turbo and blown the seals. This would explain the presence of oil in the compressor inlet and outlet, along with the smoking/sooting caused by oil being burned in the engine.

Regardless, I think it is time to take the turbo off. At the same time I can check the oil feed lines and connections for signs of carbon build up (I'll be replacing these and other components either way, but it would be good to rule out this as the cause). I'll be going through the other motions and taking the sump off and changing pick up etc. I think I might draw a line at taking the head off though, because even if it is sludged up, there is little I can do apart from buy a new engine, so I'd rather take my chances and maybe get a few 1000 miles out of it.

I have more time than money at the moment, so I am tempted to try my hand at replacing the CHDA and retaining the housings. This is more about my interest in learning about the inner workings as it is saving a few quid. I'm also aware of the very real potential for this to be a short term fix and the engine to be just knackered and coked up, causing the turbo to go again shortly after. I'd rather spend £150 on an aftermarket CHDA and have some fun learning about something, than spend £100s on a new turbo, only for it to go in a 1000 miles.

Any problems with swapping the CHDA? I presume that this is balanced separately and that further balancing within the housing isn't required after fitting. I'm slightly concerned that about the variable geometry gubbings, but I hoping that these can be retain in the housing and cleaned, without having to recalibrate. Obviously if I see that the housing has been damaged (Say by rubbing of the turbine/impeller, then I'll dump it and switch to the full turbo option.

I'm actually quite looking forwards to opening up the turbo and making a mess on the kitchen table.......if only to punish my missus for chucking so much oil in (And buying this car in the first place).

Thanks again



John
 
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What oil have you been putting in it incl spec?

Sent from my GT-S5690
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Cant recall at the moment; but it was the specific fully synthetic one recommended by the dealer.

Well I say that; but this is what I bought in order to do the upcoming oil change myself and which my wife used to top it up with recently. The last change was done by an independant garage so I can't be sure they didn't put a low cost alternative in. As I said in the original post; this is long overdue an oil change; it is has probably gone 16k since last oil and filter change; which along with the overfill seems likely to have been the cause of my problem.

My last car was a Skoda which had the (in my ill informed opinion) better 1.9TDi. This was run on long life oil and managed very well between services. I'm finding out the hard way that this 1.6HDi is far far less accommodating of long service intervals and that the turbo is a common victim of this practice. Not that regular oil change isn't always advisable; I just got lazy on this and am now paying.

To be honest, I think the 10k service interval is probably pushing it and explains why haynes suggest 6k.


John
 

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I'm finding out the hard way that this 1.6HDi is far far less accommodating of long service intervals and that the turbo is a common victim of this practice.
The biggest kick in the teeth is that the 307, 407 and Focus (among others) all share the same engine, but they all have different recommended service intervals.

In some cases the service handbook states one figure and Peugeot state another, and Haynes states a third!

I don't care how good modern oils are these days and if I'm wasting my money, I do changes every 6000 miles for a diesel and always will.
 
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Cant recall at the moment; but it was the specific fully synthetic one recommended by the dealer.

Well I say that; but this is what I bought in order to do the upcoming oil change myself and which my wife used to top it up with recently. The last change was done by an independant garage so I can't be sure they didn't put a low cost alternative in. As I said in the original post; this is long overdue an oil change; it is has probably gone 16k since last oil and filter change; which along with the overfill seems likely to have been the cause of my problem.

My last car was a Skoda which had the (in my ill informed opinion) better 1.9TDi. This was run on long life oil and managed very well between services. I'm finding out the hard way that this 1.6HDi is far far less accommodating of long service intervals and that the turbo is a common victim of this practice. Not that regular oil change isn't always advisable; I just got lazy on this and am now paying.

To be honest, I think the 10k service interval is probably pushing it and explains why haynes suggest 6k.


John
It's perfectly accommodating of the standard 12,500 mile service interval, but scrupulous servicing with the exact grade of specified oil is essential. We run 90 cars with his engine at work and not a single blower failure. They get thrashed hard from stone cold daily, but get serviced on the button and within an inch of their lives.

As Dave points out, at some time in this engines life, quite possibly before you even acquired it, the servicing has either been neglected or done on the cheap.

And comparing this unit to the old iron block VW motor is laughable for some many reasons. You may as well compare your semi to a cave.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I don't mean to compare this engine to the old vw from a technical perspective; purely from the experience of an end user.

From my untrained point of view, the increased sophistication of the hdi, with the noted gains in efficiency and power, along with required reductions in emissions, do seem to have come at the expense of robustness and fault tolerance. I totally appreciate that it is all about good maintenance.

i just now realise that these circa 60mpg figures come at a price; that needs to be factored into the overall cost of ownership. At the very least, it shows up the huge differences in the quality of independent garages with some almost admitting they can't keep up with it. I'm only trying to fix it myself, because two garages said that they wouldn't investigate further until they had put a new fap and egr valve on (because this is 'always' the problem apparently). Both wanted circa £800-£1000 to do this; that's before checking these were the actual problem (and therefore eliminating the possibility it was Not economical to repair) No doubt a new turbo would get dropped on next without finding the problem and before you know it, I've blown the value of the car again on what is possibly an engine that might be beyond saving.

You are no doubt correct about historical servicing; My wife got the car with a fair few miles on it and it has probably been poorly maintained. It doesn't have a great history, having been serviced at independents who may not have been as diligent with oil selection. Either that or my laziness in servicing and the over filling have done it.

Did anyone have any thoughts on the CHDA replacement as opposed to full turbo swap out. This car has effectively become a project now that I just want to get running for my own satisfaction and education....even if the turbo goes pop in 1000 miles. However, I don't want to spend £150 only to discover I need to balance or calibrate something that I don't have the equipment for.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Looks like I was too quick to criticise this engine and turbo.

Despite getting myself all worked up about the turbo itself, after a thorough inspection of the pipes and hoses, I found a fairly substantial hole in the inlet hose to the intercooler. Luckily this was before I had removed the turbo.

I haven't replaced the hose yet (Peugeot want £170!, so breakers hunt it is), but a temporary fix showed the car was completely back to normal. It seems the pipe was resting against something hot as it had signs of melting in a number of places, which eventually lead to a split in one location. Obviously with a hold I could get my finger in to, the pressure was never going to be sustained.

A quick run on PP2000 showed boost pressures spot on the reference values.....:D

This is lesson for me anyway; don't always assume the worst, look for the more obvious.

Thanks for all you help!



John
 
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