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Discussion Starter #1
Recent tapping noise I thought at first was coming from the power steering pump and after removing the aux belt found out it's not. Noise in that narrow area between belts and the inner body can be confusing. Anyway I,m now thinking its the top of the engine cam pully end like a hydraulic lifter or rocker? Do these engines suffer from sticky lifters? Having had two partner vans never had this issue before. (173000 MLS). I have had the van 11 years and being a bit OCD it has always had what is needed. Oil changes every 4,000 mls. Filters to and used good 10-40 oil. Semi-synthetic or fully synth. going to start with another oil and oil filter change anyway. Maybe a molyslip lifter treatment to see where that leads. Just asking if it is time that the valve train gets a bit tired?

Ray
 

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Have you checked bottom pulley these can start to break up and cause a tapping or knock.

I have also seen a slightly loose one moving in the key way tapping and thread lock on the bolt stopping pulley fully loosening

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi thanks, windy
bottom pully was off about 5 months ago when I did the water pump and timing belt but its worth a re-check yep. I need to get it in my garage and a bit more up closer. Really does sound like the top end but can't rule anything out yet apart from what was on the aux belt driveline.

Regards Ray
 

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Ok here's an update for anyone that is reading this post. I had the aux belt off today and ran the engine for a couple of minutes and tapping still there. So it's not the crank pulley or the tension pulleys or the alternator or power steering pump. I could still hear it at the top end under rocker cover. I changed the oil and oil filter while I was at it and no difference with new oil. Maybe I got one non-operating lifter not sure yet but I have decided to take the top off and replace all 8 lifters and rocker arms. Does anyone know if there is a trick way of getting away with not having to take out camshaft? Haynes says it has to be removed. who has done this job on a 2.0 hdi diesel?
 

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Are sure it's not just noisy injectors they can get noisy with age.

If it's got Bosch injection it's also worth a check to see if it has a link harness on the fuel rail sensor which drops down behind the starter as they become brittle and the insulation drops off you can then get a rattle or misfire as it shorts out often without the engine light coming on

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Discussion Starter #6
It's a seimens injection on mine windy and yesterday I run the engine will oil filler off on idle and can definitely hear it coming from cam area mate. No leaking injectors either as I did the four seals about a year ago. I read up on the cam removal and its not a big deal really, you just go for the easier options first. The followers and rockers are readily available which tells me they are more than likely a wear item. Oh, no misfires either. will update when I have done a bit more. Thanks for extra heads up mate.
 

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Hi RB,
I am currently doing a complete top end rebuild on a 2.0 HDi 135 DW10 RHR in my sons 407 Coupe.
Part of the problem was a knocking at the top end under the cam covers. The other problems were more serious but not relevant here.
It turns out that the "Knocking" at the top end was a little more complicated than I thought, and a lot more serious (potentially).
It was an oil feed issue.
There are no sensors at the top of the engine to measure the oil pressure being delivered to the top of the engine and blocked galleries had reduced the amount of oil getting there.
This caused a "Dry" top end and worn Cam Bearings and Lobes. New Cams ordered and, since I was at it, new rockers valve stem guides and seals.
Started tracing the "Oil Route" through the engine.
Drained the oil and cooling circuits so I could do as follows. (Oil sump plug was quite clean)
Removed oil cooler (attached to front/side of oil filter housing. The oil galleries in the cooler should be about 12 to 15mm but were so "Gunged up" by carbon deposits, jellied oil, etc that they were down to about 5mm throughout.
Removed oil filter housing, similar problem but not quite as bad.
Removed sump then oil pump not quite as bad but still not good.
Sump itself had a thick layer of "Goo" on bottom.
Cut up an old flexible drain cleaner and used it and MIG welding wire to clean out the engine galleries to the Oil Filter, along with quite a few long flexible brushes and plenty of brake cleaner and de-greaser. You would not believe the crap that came out.
Cleaned carefully the pump and primary filter, oil filter housing and cooler.
Removed head.
Valves OK just need regrinding (after valve clean up on wire wheel. Surprisingly valve guides were OK (I was expecting to have to replace them). Valve stem seals looked OK but discarded as new ones came with new rockers (and the valve guides I didn't need).
The oil galleries in the head and the feed lines at the bearing mounts were almost blocked as well. Same clean out technique.
Lets ignore all the work done.
What had caused the "Gunge" and why had oil changes not flushed it?
When the DW10 was introduced in the early 2000's (2004 I think, could be wrong) it was built to use "Fully Synthetic" Oil (I think it was a special Total oil in the beginning, just checked my Haynes manual and there are only 2 specific oils mentioned).
This may have been the cause of the "Gunge". Not all oils, at that time were equal.
For instance you could not mix most semi synthetic oils with these new oils and could never use a traditional distilled oil as that would produce a jelly.
Most semi synthetics at that time did not meet the more stringent criteria until quite recently. This cars history showed it was services by Peugeot for the fist 5 years and did about 75000 miles in that time. Then the service history is sketchy and it has done another 100000 miles since.
So here is what I think has happened.
A service was done, perhaps by a garage, perhaps by the owner and a semi synthetic was used, probably the cheapest on the market at that time, and it may have been incompatible with the original oil and caused a build up of "Gunge" in the system. Repetition of this has led to the blocking of galleries, etc.
The knocking at the cams was the result of metal to metal cam lobes and rockers not getting enough oil and led to excess wear.
When you strip the top to check your rockers/lifters check what the oil is like around the lifters. If you have been changing your oil regularly then when you rub your finger over the barrel of a lifter you should be able to wipe you finger clean with a light swipe of a cloth or paper towel. If you leave black marks in the groves of your fingerprint that is a carbon deposit that should not be there.
If you find carbon, drain the oil, remove the oil cooler and check the oil galleries. If they are pretty clean then you should not have a problem, but still check the head galleries.
You can do this as you will have access as the fuel pump and vacuum pump will have been removed.
Sorry for the length of this but this is not the first time I have come across this problem for early to mid 2000's cars, especially diesels.
Thanks again,
Mike
P.S. Do not think getting the alloy cam cover off is going to be easy. It is sealed on with a silicon gasket (gun applied) and is very hard to remove. I forced the first one I did, bent it, and had to buy a replacement. I use very thin metal filler appliers that I buy online. The cheaper, the thinner, the better.
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #8
hi Mike, thank you for your reply. Ok so firstly I have owned the van 12 years when I bought it the first thing I do as with any vehicle is oil/filter air filter fuel filter change. Started straight out with Mobile 3000 I think. Continued from then on to fully synthetic oil of good makes ie millers Valvoline Shell Fuch titan and so on. Has been fine for 170,000 miles. Only the last say 6-700 miles has this tapping appeared. I had the oil filler cap off and what I could see on the cam lobes was fine but of course, it would only allow me to view two. With my finger, the oil seemed ok and not black as expected from a diesel engine but as I said the oil changes have been every 4000mls for 12 years. Three days ago I did an oil change and filter and put in a molyslip hydraulic lifter cleaner which claims to clean oil ways to.
I will leave this in for a short time to see what happens, I have yet to get the rocker cover off and have a good nose. If it turns out that as you say sludged up oil ways have caused oil starvation I will be very disappointed as I have renewed and replaced anything this van has ever needed.I was even considering a strong engine flush to. If i have to renew the lifters and rockers i will but that's as far as i will go to cure the problem as the van although in great shape is for me enough money spent now.

I Will update when I get my next chance to open the top-up.

Regards Ray
 

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Hi Ray
To be honest you are setting my mind at rest. The oils you have mentioned should all have met the minimum criteria PSA set when developing this engine.There is a quick check you can do without stripping anything except a jubilee clip.
Remove the oil breather return hose from the front of the plastic cover on top of the cam retainer and check if the oil return is OK. If it is and there is no build up in the rubber pipe I have no idea what could be causing the "knock" other than just age.
Just remembered this one. Another simple check is to remove the "beautification panel" (engine cover to you and me) and check for leakage around the injectors when the engine is running. If a bottom injector seal is failing you may see diesel around the injector. This causes a sort of loud ticking at tick-over which can disappear when the engine is under load.
You can see at least one of the cams by removing the plastic cover over the Cam retainer without touching the Cam retainer itself.
I hope it all works out for you. Let me know the outcome please.
Thanks,
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hi mike
not sure how much of my post you read but I have renewed the injector seals and yes I did look around the injectors again this weekend all ok there. oil breather pipe I have had off before but not for a couple of years, I'll throw that one into the mix as well for something to do. I'm thinking unless I find something blatantly obvious it may just be wear in the top end. It's only a single cam 8 valve so not much in there really. My DW10 TD is a turbo diesel btw.
Regards Ray
 

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Hi Ray,
You stumped me. I never even considered a d DW10 8V, I haven't seen one for at least 10 years. All DW10 engines were TD's and were the first PSA engine to use a common rail diesel injection system.
Ignore most ofl my response as it was based, at least partly, on my misconception that your engine was a 16V.
My apologies,
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hi Mike
lol I know I knew you weren't talking about the same engine but I didn't want to seem rude, its ok it still made interesting reading and i appreciate you going to the trouble of the details. i will get to the bottom of it fixed or not lol will post back here when I nail it.
Thank you mate.
Ray
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have a new set of lifters and rockers on the way as i have now eliminated as much as i can from the tapping equation. Its got louder now and clearly coming from the cam area. I will be attemping this job very soon. I posted another thread on any tips regarding this job on the 8valve DW10 RHY engine.

Ray
 
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