Strange behavior of remote folding key

1554 Views 24 Replies 5 Participants Last post by jberends90, 10 d ago

wlee8828

Discussion Starter · 4 mo ago

Hi,

My car is Peugeot 508 (2011) 1.6THP with original RT6 head unit. I don't have a start and stop system. I only have the remote folding key which allow me to lock and unlock the car via remote key.

Recently, I am experiencing a weird situation after installing an aftermarket android head unit. The lock and unlock function of the remote key is still functioning. But, not every time. If I don't do anything with the car for 2-5 min (such as do not open and close the door, do not touch any electronic devices and so on), I cannot lock / unlock the car with the remote key.

Let me describe the situation with some examples. When I got the car in the morning I cannot unlock the car with the remote key. I should use the physical key to operate the central locking system, then I can unlock the car. Once I unlock/lock the car with physical key, I can lock and unlock with the remote key again (all the functions of the remote key perfectly works). After use of the car, I can lock the car with the remote key without any issue. But, if I come back to car about 2-5 min later, the remote key doesn't work and I should use physical key again.

I think that electric signal/connection to central locking system has been cut while the engine is off (or acc is off). Once I do something with the car (e.g. unlocking with key, or turning the key to ACC position, etc.), the central locking system gets juice and work again.

So, I reverted the aftermarket android head unit to the original RT6 head unit to test if everything is okay with original system. In this case, everything was normal. But, once I have the android head unit. I always have this annoying issue again. I originally suspected a CAN bus decoder from a seller, thus I replaced the CAN bus decoder with other one. Unfortunately, it didn't solve the issue.

I also tried the reinitializing the central locking system as described in the user manual (insert key, turn to second position, immediately press and hold lock button, and release the button and turn the key to off). But, the problem is still there.

Is there anyone experienced same issue before or any advice to solve this issue? Thank you very much

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jberends90

· #2 · 4 mo ago

I also have the same issue. Sometimes the next morning it works but sometimes after 1 hour it doesn't. And if it doesn't work. The only thi g you need to do is wake the car (open the door manually of unlock the car manually) and the remote is working again.

Hope someone have the solution.

Ian M Davis

· #3 · 4 mo ago

I don't have a solution to your problem but I looked at the wiring diagrams and I can see that the Head Unit and the Central locking use the same CAN bus link to the BSI. I suspect without the original head unit the BSI is going to sleep and not monitoring the remote entry system.

jberends90

· #4 · 4 mo ago

Yeah! I also think is has something to do with a sleep function. I was at the garage and they say there where canbus errors. They say it wasnt specifically errors about the keysystem but i think there is the problem indeed. The trange thing is that sometimes it works for 2 days. So what is then different that it doesn't go to sleep?

Ian M Davis

· #5 · 4 mo ago

jberends90 said:
Yeah! I also think is has something to do with a sleep function. I was at the garage and they say there where canbus errors. They say it wasnt specifically errors about the keysystem but i think there is the problem indeed. The strange thing is that sometimes it works for 2 days. So what is then different that it doesn't go to sleep?

That's an interesting point. The main CAN bus that connects the BSI and Engine ECU has a 120 Ohm termination resistors at both ends of the CAN bus (in the BSI and in the engine ECU). I would expect other CAN buses to have similar configurations. It would be interesting to know what the resistance between the CAN bus pins on the original head unit.

There are several variations of the 508 audio and Telematics equipment so I have attached an example of a 508 Telemetrics diagram that includes the RT6. Connector 16V NR (16 pin back) pins 10 and 13 connect to the CAN bus.

wlee8828

Discussion Starter · #6 · 4 mo ago

@jberends90 Do you also have an issue with sound? For me, speaker doesn't make sound at all at the beginning. But, if I operate central locking system (let's say CLS) several times, suddenly the speakers work.

During the weekend, I did some test on my car.

1. connect the android head unit and can bus decoder (CBD).
2. disconnect everything from the car
3. connect only the main harness from the seller (without CBD)
4. connect only the main harness from the seller (with CBD)

Of course we knew that the CLS and speakers (especially for me) do not work properly in the case nr1.

For the case nr2, everything was working flawlessly. So, the CLS shouldn't have any issue even though we do not connect the original RT6 head unit to the car.

At this point, I suspect three things, wiring, CBD and android head unit. Thus I performed two more test cases (nr3 and 4). For the third case, still CLS was working normal. However, once I connected CBD, CLS did not work properly. At this moment, I cannot say I don't have any issue with android head unit. But, at least, we have definitely some issue with CBD.

@Ian M Davis Thanks for your information. It is good ideas to check resistance of the CBD

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jberends90

· #7 · 4 mo ago

Well it have a 508 faceliftmodel. 2015. Everything works perfectly exept the remotekey.

Maybe its a canbus settings issue?

jberends90

· #8 · 4 mo ago

This are the canbussettings that I have

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Ian M Davis

· #9 · 4 mo ago

wlee8828 said:
@jberends90

But, at least, we have definitely some issue with CBD.

That was an interesting set of tests you did. The only thing the CLS and the RT6 have in common is they are on the same CAN bus. My guess is the CBD is doing something nasty to the CAN bus. The power connection to the RT6 is on all the time and it is likely the RT6's CAN bus live drivers are active all the times. I assume the CBD uses that same power supply but I am wondering if the CBD is shutting down the CAN bus line driver to save power This could put a bad load on the CAN bus. The best way to check that is to look at the CAN bus lines with an oscilloscope but some DC voltage measurements with a multimeter from the CAN Hi line to earth and the CAN Lo line to earth would probably give enough information.

jberends90

· #10 · 4 mo ago

What I don't understand is that sometimes its working for a day and sometimes after 15min the remote doesnt work. I wonder if it has something to do with some behavior or using the android unit...

Ian M Davis

· #11 · 4 mo ago

jberends90 said:
What I don't understand is that sometimes its working for a day and sometimes after 15min the remote doesn't work. I wonder if it has something to do with some behavior or using the android unit...

I don't know if this is on the right track but here is possible reason: It is quite likely your car has a BPGA. This a fuse box that sits next or on top of the battery. The BPGA has two functions: safety and power saving. About 20 minutes after you lock the car the BPGA turns the power off to most parts of the car. The BSI and central locking still get power. When you unlock the car the BPGA powers everything up again. I wonder if this is why you are getting a time delay. The central locking should not be affected by the RT6 head unit but if there is something switched off on the bus it may be enough to stop the bus from working properly.

wlee8828

Discussion Starter · #12 · 4 mo ago

jberends90 said:
This are the canbussettings that I have

I don't think it is the CAN bus setting issue because I got all the information correctly via CAN bus.
Door opening, A/C control, parking sensor and so on are all displayed well with current setting.

wlee8828

Discussion Starter · #13 · 4 mo ago

Ian M Davis said:
I don't know if this is on the right track but here is possible reason: It is quite likely your car has a BPGA. This a fuse box that sits next or on top of the battery. The BPGA has two functions: safety and power saving. About 20 minutes after you lock the car the BPGA turns the power off to most parts of the car. The BSI and central locking still get power. When you unlock the car the BPGA powers everything up again. I wonder if this is why you are getting a time delay. The central locking should not be affected by the RT6 head unit but if there is something switched off on the bus it may be enough to stop the bus from working properly.

I agree that it shouldn't be an issue with RT6 head unit. If it is, central locking shouldn't work when I disconnected everything from the car. In my case, CLS works only for 2-5min. So, I strongly suspect the CBD is interfering with CAN bus network. I did not aware about BPGA. Thanks for the input.

It seems that there is something going on among BPGA, BSI and CBD. I assume that CBD takes up higher power than regular situation. So, BPGA cut the power to BSI. But, just assumption and no ideas yet how to confirm and how to solve this issue.

Definitely, I have some issue with CLS and CBD because as I mentioned before, I have an issue with speakers too. When I trigger locking/unlocking signal several times, speakers are suddenly working. Really strange ..

Ian M Davis

· #14 · 4 mo ago

I don't think the problem is a CAN bus configuration issue I think it's a hardware design issue. If you can find a way to measure the voltage on the CAN Hi and CAN Lo lines relative to earth it might give you an idea of that is happening. Normally, the CAN Hi line voltage should be >2.5V and the CAN Lo <2.5V.

I was just looking at problem on a 5008 where the whole main CAN bus was down. There was one faulty device on the bus pulling the CAN Hi line down well below 2.5V. If this happens the CAN bus will stop working. Cutting power to a device on the CAN bus may well do this.

jberends90

· #15 · 4 mo ago

Good point. It doesnt sound like an easy to fix thing.

bajricredzo

· #16 · 4 mo ago

Problem solved? Have same problem on my 508 sw 2013 after installing android radio

jberends90

· #17 · 4 mo ago

I'm so happy to hear that im not the only one with this problem. The only thing is that I have not done the replacement by myself. So the garage build my android unit in it. I'm afraid that if it's a wire thing im not the guy whos going to find the fix for it.

bajricredzo

· #18 · 3 mo ago

And

jberends90 said:
I'm so happy to hear that im not the only one with this problem. The only thing is that I have not done the replacement by myself. So the garage build my android unit in it. I'm afraid that if it's a wire thing im not the guy whos going to find the fix for it.

And?

jberends90

· #19 · 3 mo ago

Well the problem still exist.

jberends90

· #20 · 3 mo ago

Someone already found the solution? I'm trying to change some canbus sertings but still no luck.

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