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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, (I am new and fishing for help)
I have been told that the fiat Ulysse Automatic(04 plate) to all intents and purposes is the same as the 807. Fiat however declare their Auto Transmission is sealed for life. Meaning I can't use it.

This means I can get no information about the gear box.
I believe it is the same as the 807 which I understand is the ALO4.

I am having to guess what the fluid levels should be the Fiat book says;
"4,25/6."
I am guessing that means I can drain 1.5ltrs, however on trying this 2 ltrs came out.

It is not restarting after 10 miles showing no fault. (although lcd is damaged.)

If someone knows what the fluid levels are it would help.
I am guessing that the fluid level device used on the 807 could be fitted so I
can use my car rather than scrap it.
 

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Most manufacturers claim sealed for life for autos !!

There are 2 possible boxes in your car I would expect it to be a zf 4hp type but have seen some with the inferior box not sure of its manufacturer but it may be zf also

The 4hp type has a cooler on top well its not actually a cooler but that's what it looks like !! it has a round plug for the wiring

The 4hp has a dipstick low down on its front edge usually black so hard to spot
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Type of auto transmission

To be certain I will need time to check it. I did not see anything last time I looked. I know the drain plug is one piece with no level guage so that may be the explanation. I will check it as soon as, and let you know.
This is really helpful.
Cheers
Andy
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Fiat Auto Transmission

Hi,

Yesterday I was given advice about the possible details of my Auto Transmission which I understand to be the same as the Peugeot 807 Auto Transmission which is, my son tells me, the AL4 Auto trans.
Thanks for the suggestion yesterday but unfortunately it does not have a hidden dipstick.
The Peugeot I believe has a drain plug that has a level aid to help ensure correct top up. Unfortunately on my Fiat "sealed for life" means no level plug is supplied.
I might even be able to sub the Fiat drain plug with the Peugeot drain and fluid level plug which I understand is made up of the level gauge which fits in first then the drain plug inserts into the level gauge. (I hope that makes sense)

Thanks for your advice I learn more with every bit of helpfault. I am determined not to let this beat me. Apparently my next job is to replace the pressure and lock up solenoids. The thing I will do first is find them on the box they may be on the outside but I don't know where.

Thanks for your help.

Kind Regards

Andy
 

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Yep if it is the al4 type then the solenoids do indeed cause problems the same basic box is used in Renaults with the same problems although Renault call it a DPO !!

The solenoids are internal though.

I had a look at a broken one I have from a 406 hdi and it is indeed an al4 only the bigger engines get the decent box !!
 

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Fluid Levels...

Hi All, We're absolutely sure its an AL4 box. What we're having difficulty ascertaining is the amount of fluid that should be in this box. Is there meant to be 4.5 litres outside of the torque converter? If anybody has access to the fluid levels that should be used in an 54 807 2.0 petrol auto it'd be great to have a definite figure.

Many thanks in advance,

Rich.
 

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From what rel 406 says the trans is similar to the DPO fitted to my Scenic, changing the fluid is a great idea, auto repairers reccomend every 24K miles but as you have found out not all the fluid comes out as much is held in the torque converter, In mine about 3 litres drains from the capacity of 4½ litres. All you can do is put back a little more than drained out, go for a run say 7 miles or so to get it warm then with the engine running cycle through the gearbox and then in neutral or park still running remove the small drain plug and confirm a little fluid comes out. If none stop the engine and add more and try again. Don't remove the level plug without the engine running, fluid will p.. out, best.
 

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Hi wynb, Yep the DPO and AL4 are meant to be the same thing. It appears that different fluid levels are specified for different cars though and on 807, fiat Ulysse and citroen c8 because there is no dipstick theres no freely available information. Fiat specify is as sealed for life, but i believe peugeot do suggest changes....

At the moment the box has about 1.8 litres in it but we think it should be more. We've only put that in because that's all that came out.

There are a couple of confusing factors - when the gearbox gives up if you turn the car off and attempt to restart it it's dead. the ecu appears to shut it off. you have to leave it for a few hours before a restart. There are no warning codes showing on the lcd. Im wondering if it's worth getting some sort of OBD reader and whether something generic will help or not?

THanks for the reply. All insight gratefully received!

Cheers,

Rich
 

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Sounds like an electrical problem as much as anything else, getting the codes read with Fiat's diagnostic reader might give some clues, I don't think a plain OBD reader will tell you anything useful. How about carefully removing the wiring plugs to and from the auto ecu and checking for corrosion, is the pollen filter in place above the gearbox as if it is missing rain will be dripping onto the gearbox through the intake grille just below the windscreen. Are the rubber tubes sealing the gutters at the corners of the windscreen? Water will drip onto the engine ecu and the engine fuseboard on the other side if they are not 100%.
 

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Some good ideas there. Certainly they may have something to do with the not restarting thing. We'll get them checked out in the next day or two and post back :)

The car does drive for about 20 miles before losing drive then wont restart so there could be 2 things at play here.

Thanks,

Rich
 

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A bit off topic, but there is no such thing as "sealed for life". That is just a poorly worded way of saying "no user maintenance intended" or "service item only", which is another way of saying "we forgot the dipstick!".

Jag marketed the XJ8 (fitted with the 5 speed auto ZF5HP24) as "sealed for life". Same box as fitted to Mercs, Audis, and Range Rovers. They all had insane numbers of failures.

I have the official ZF repair manual. Here is a quote from page 5 (bold emphasis is mine).

"Important:
The transmission is filled with life-time oil.

The oil does not have to be changed until it has been in use for ten years.

The transmission may only be delivered with the oil type and oil amount specified in the corresponding parts list documentation (see ELCAT), otherwise there is danger of gearbox failure."

I suppose the secret is to be able to know the VA's definition of life. Or better still, the gearbox manufacturers definition.
 

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Hi Griogarach,

Yep - My normal field is the rover p6 v8 ( picture

) and everything on that car has a service schedule. To be blunt I dont believe it when manufacturers say otherwise...

Cheers

Rich
 

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Discussion Starter #13
P6 looks good back to the wannabe 807

Hi,
I have increased the fluid level slightly. The gearbox appears to be engaging and working through its shifts etc.
However the engine will not restart for at least 3 hours.
I guess I am going to have to have the ECU fangled thing read.
I will let you know
Cheers for all advice
Andy
 

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wasnt the al4 used in xm / xantia variants ? those owners would refill them....those owners would rebuild them in jungle with bamboo lol

(and thats not insulting, I had an xm, and a xantia, and they were very reliable)(not counting xantia clutch pedal plastic bits)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hi I like what you say.
I would really like to believe I can cure the faults. The XM will have had a dipstick or level gauge. Unfortunately I only have what the service manual says which is
4.5/ 1.5.
The gear oil drained was 2lts. I don't know which is right. It may mean that 2.5 lts. has disappeared or that was overfilled.
The other problem is the electrics are amazing. The heating and fans switch on and off when they want. If it is driven for 20 minutes or so it starts to slip gears.
If it is switched off before the gears start slipping it will refuse to start.
Leave it 3 hours and it starts as if nothing had happened. It has a mind of its own.
No mechanic I have spoken to has had a good thing to say including no real answers.
If I was a psychiatrist I would have it committed to a car asylum.
If no one can help it has to go.
Cheers to all.:lol:
 

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My Scenic (with DPO) was flood damaged and bought at a salvage auction replaced the head gasket but car would loose drive after 8 miles or so, turned out to be water in the gearbox took 7 changes to get all the water out, problem is quite a lot of fluid is retained in the torque converter when you try and drain it, something like 1½ litres out of 4½ in the DPO.
I guess you have not got water in the oil? Turns a lovely mauve if you have. I would persevere with a couple more changes, could the gearbox be overheating causing shutdown? Is the fluid cooling system OK?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi,
This is really interesting. If your gear box is the same you have answered my 1st question. Mine had 2 litres of transmission fluid in. It has occurred to me the cutting out is due to overheating fluid. I believe the people I bought it off knew this and tried to disguise the fault by adding 0.5lt of fluid.
I have drained the fluid 3 times and each time added new fluid so a percentage has been replaced.
I will reduce the fluid level to 1.5 lts.
Do you think if an engine oil change has not been done it may affect the heat exchanger as I understand it is oil cooled.
I know it is located on the back of the gearbox and may be tempted to remove it and clean but not sure of the worth of trying this.
I really appreciate your help. I think the vehicle could be worth saving but I am scared I have thrown so much good money at it.
Cheers
Andy F
From the Asylum
 

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You must get the fluid level correct, warm engine and trans, level ground, engine running, cycle through PRNDL, select P or N and remove the small level plug underneath. Allow excess fluid to drain out, if no fluid add some more and repeat.
Fluid is cooled via heat exchanger connected to the engine cooling system on rear of trans, are the pipes in and out hot and is one hotter than the other indicating the exchanger is doing its job. Could it need bleeding like a heater matrix? Best.
 

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The coolers on these are not really coolers and do a poor job of it anyway they are simply heat exchangers and transfer heat from the tranny fluid to the less hot engine coolant also when cold it works in reverse taking heat from the engine to warm the oil quicker.

If the cooling pipes are hot then I would leave exchanger well alone if the box is shutting down due to heat there is something other than the cooler causing it.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Thanks WYNB and Reliable406.
I like to understand then I can make decisions.
Today the engine would not restart after a 10 mile round trip. I hosed the gearbox with cold water for about 5 minutes and it restarted probably just coincidence but a bit of fun in the dark
From what you say the heat exchange seems more to maintain efficiency and stable conditions. I have checked the level it now has 1.5 lts. Next I will check the heat exchanger. If this works as you say the problem lays elsewhere.
I am going to take it one step at a time. That way I will be released from the asylum for mad cars.
The vehicles other problem is the electrics. I feel this may be to do with the complicated interior and doors. There does not appear to be any dampness in the engine especially around the fuse box etc. The strange drain system that seems to be designed with the flexible pipes to be a threat above them are not leaking. That is why I think it may be to do with the doors as there are signs they have been interfered with.
Thanks I will let you know how I get on.

Cheers
Andy F
 
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