[Poojoe]

Hi Guys,
Help, Please.
Ok I got a 2.0 2008 Expert.
On accelerating I get a good bit of black smoke. If I very very tentatively accelerate ican see it in my mirror not as black but just dark than the road.

Ok I notice my mpg is 20 !! I drive like a Vicar going to a funeral, van is empty, new air filter fitted.

When switching the engine off the engine shakes forward and back, It doesn't run on. The rear engine mount is knackered.

I notice the intercooler is plastered with oil ( outside). This may be a red herring and due to a leak on the engine somewhere. Inside the intercooler it's oily but I don't think it's excessive.

I have now changed the intercooler and pipes for a dry, clean one.

Plugged into Planet I get

P0113 Intake air temperature signal, Air flow sensor, status intermittent.
signal too high, min air flow

P0102 Flowmeter signal short circuit or value to high

So I changed the Maf sensor for one from the other car (may not be good)
and I get the same code but also the anti pollution warning comes up on dash. So I change it back and it goes.

I then changed the the sensor and big butterfly valve bit that fits between the intercooler and inlet manifold. Same codes are present.

I then blanked off the egr, that didn't go well and it wouldn't run at all so changed back to the original one.

It's all done my head in now and im just spinning with thoughts and getting nowhere. Any help, pointers on what the fault codes are about would be great please.

Just a few things i noticed on planet on tickover

Accelerator position 49% ( this is at tick over with foot off)
Turbo Electro Valve 0%
Fuel flow regulator opening 0%
Crank sync NO

Thanks Guys, hope you can shed some light ideas, please.

 

[Steo M]

Sounds like a knackered turbo or al least the seals are, have you had it tested?

 

[Poojoe]

Thanks Dude,
I haven't checked it. I have planet but not sure how to use it fully yet.
I have a spare Turbo on the other van so could swap them Ill have to read on it a bit more I've heard there is a filter for the turbo needs changing at the same time.

Talking of turbos, I noticed when looking at mine there is a small amount of black soot at the side where the actuator arm jobber is and I'm thinking this might not be a good sign ?

Also today I noticed that with the engine running there were lots of air bubbles in the return fuel line. is this normal?

Got the whole day to work on it tomorrow so I'm trawling the old posts on black smoke etc for any ideas. thanks guys.

 

[Steo M]

Have a look on FiatForum.com for some answers, the Scudo is the same van. Scroll down to the end where the Scudo section is, I can't post the proper link for the website as I'm new here.
Post your question on it as there's some really clever guys on that who know their stuff & these vans inside out.
I'm a hobbyist mechanic & know a bit about these vans as I've had an Expert, Dispatch & Scudo, Having said that, I don't want to give you duff information wasting your time & money.
Regards Stephen.

 

[reliable406]

Cam and crank sync is NO are you sure of that if thats the case that would explain everything as the timing is out !!

Stop randomly swapping parts it wont help

Check timing using pins to be sure

 

[Poojoe]

Have a look on FiatForum.com for some answers, the Scudo is the same van. Scroll down to the end where the Scudo section is, I can't post the proper link for the website as I'm new here.
Post your question on it as there's some really clever guys on that who know their stuff & these vans inside out.
I'm a hobbyist mechanic & know a bit about these vans as I've had an Expert, Dispatch & Scudo, Having said that, I don't want to give you duff information wasting your time & money.
Regards Stephen.

Hi Stephen,
Great idea, thanks for that. I'll have a nose on the Scudo section. Thats Brilliant. Thank you.

 

[Poojoe]

Cam and crank sync is NO are you sure of that if thats the case that would explain everything as the timing is out !!

Stop randomly swapping parts it wont help

Check timing using pins to be sure

Hi Reliable,
Ok Thank you. I thought that didn't sound right. Ill check it again but it did say than on both Planet and creader.

If I get it again ill look up about the pins. I'm hoping that means you align the cam crank and inj pump pulleys with a pin in each so there is no getting it wrong. If it's out ill change the belt and pensioners. I have read some modern cars have a water pump in there too so Ill check for that.. Thank you.

Guys I'll prioritise the air in the transparent pipe to the ip as I been reading about that not being good and effecting the fuel economy. Then ill get on the crank jobber. Thanks Guys.

 

[jimmymarsbar]

Forget about everything to do with airflow, turbo seals, butterfly valves, transparent pipes etc.

As Reliable406 said, if the cam/crank synchronisation is out, then that's your problem. Invest your time and effort in getting that investigated/fixed before anything else.

Check the condition of the cam/crank sensors too.

 

[reliable406]

Ignore the bubbles its normal unless its full of bubbles and turning to froth but if it was it would be hard to start its not your main issue.

You have a cam driven fuel pump its only the cam and crank that you pin.

Its not a case of if you get it again if timing signals are not right it will not run properly ! those readings are live readings not codes that is what the ECU is actually seeing might not be belt it could be a bad signal from cam sensor or wiring to it but i would be checking that before anything else.

 

[Poojoe]

Ok Thanks Guys. I just checked it again with the diagnostic stuff and it said syncro NO.
So tomorrow Ill take the sensor off the other car and try that on see what happens.
It runs a tiny bit bumpy on tick over but driving it goes really well and fast even good uphill with a load but loads of black smoke then and the mpg is terrible.
Ill get on it in the morning and report back. Big thanks guys.

 

[Steo M]

Forget about everything to do with airflow, turbo seals, butterfly valves, transparent pipes etc.

As Reliable406 said, if the cam/crank synchronisation is out, then that's your problem. Invest your time and effort in getting that investigated/fixed before anything else.

Check the condition of the cam/crank sensors too.

I'd imagine any of these sensor problems would have come up on your diagnostics reading straight away?
These forums are great provided you get the right info from someone who knows their stuff or has first hand experience from a similar problem, it eliminates the guessers.

 

[jimmymarsbar]

I'd imagine any of these sensor problems would have come up on your diagnostics reading straight away?

Not necessarily - it very much depends on how the car interprets the info provided by the sensors. I've had a look at a car recently that had loads of faults and ran rough. Rather than just changing O2 sensors, temp sensors, injectors and other parts left, right and centre, I used a little bit of acquired experience and learned knowledge to realise that all these faults were an indirect consequence of another fault, which was a mucky TDC sensor. No guess work involved.

Diagnostics isn't just about reading numbers and letters on a screen - there's a lot on understanding required.

Ironically in this case, it is a case of reading letters on a screen: camshaft/crankshaft synchronisation - NO.

These forums are great provided you get the right info from someone who knows their stuff or has first hand experience from a similar problem, it eliminates the guessers.

There's no point looking at anything else on the car - there is an issue with the timing. Whilst the turbo seal may need looking at, it's not top of the list - the major issue is the timing. Fact. Again, no guess work.

What gives you the authority to assume members on here lack the knowledge and experience to give advice? As stated in your earlier post, you're new here, so in my book that's a fairly bold statement to make.

Nobody professes to be THE expert on any car or otherwise. We're all here for the same reason, to ask for help if we need it and to give help and advice where we can.

 

[Steo M]

What gives you the authority to assume members on here lack the knowledge and experience to give advice? As stated in your earlier post, you're new here, so in my book that's a fairly bold statement to make.

I'm new to this forum, not new to cars, you can only go by what information the OP gives in their post & I never mentioned anything about swapping out parts.
You're not the first know-it-all I've met on these internet forums & certainly won't be the last so while you may think your 'The Oracle' & may well be right in this circumstance, I've seen enough wrong advice given by so called mechanics on different forums over the years.
If it's a timing issue then the OP has a cheap fix on his hands & you can hang onto your hero status. If not, then he's got the option of looking elsewhere, seeking the exact info from someone who had the same fault & therefore solve the problem.
This is something I did suggest, after all, 'knowledge is king' so don't be getting your panties all bunched up over someone else's opinion.

 

[Poojoe]

Guys,
Thank you all for your input. My heads been spinning with it all. so I,m going to dig over the garden then get on it. I have seen what the sensor looks like on e bay but I'm not sure where it is yet I see them on a gearbox and next to a crank pulley or cam pulley I think so not too many places to look.
Try not to fall out guys. I really appreciate all you help.

 

[reliable406]

Cam and crank sync is NOT an indication of a sensor fault so you would NOT get a fault code for it !!!

What it actually means is the ecu checks the relative position of the cam in relation to the crank and it should say yes IE IN SYNC but even if not in sync you do not get a code as its not an electrical fault the sensors are working fine its the DATA thats wrong !

STEO M on the subject of expert hero whatever nobody is an expert anyone who claims to be is a dumbass but what i will say is i have years of real knowledge on this particular engine having looked after a fleet of 10 and seeing cam and crank sync being no is a signal to me that something timing related is the cause of the real issues

 

[Poojoe]

Hi Reliable,
Ok I get that about the sensors thank you.
I've taken bits off and got to the cam belt.
I can see an elongated hole in the cam pulley and Im guessing this goes to the same in the housing and a pin goes in to hold this in position ?

As for the crank I cant see any way to hold that unless it means a pin goes into the fly wheel ??? I have put a pic of the gearbox housing and there is a large bolt at the top. I'm thinking something goes in here to hold this bit??

So I'll do this tomorrow and see if the holes line up. I think I need to turn the crank twice to make sure that will happen.

I,m feeling a bit despondent about it all. I don't know much But I'm finding it hard to see how the timing belt being out slightly by stretching would knock the fuel consumption from 40-50 mpg down to 20-25 mpg. I just can't get my head around that. It can't be much out surly as it goes like a rocket, is a bit lumpy on tickover but stinks of unburnt fuel. I got a 1200 mile journey in a weeks time so need to get this fuel thing sorted. Here is the picks guys. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Steo M]

STEO M on the subject of expert hero whatever nobody is an expert anyone who claims to be is a dumbass but what i will say is i have years of real knowledge on this particular engine having looked after a fleet of 10 and seeing cam and crank sync being no is a signal to me that something timing related is the cause of the real issues[/QUOTE]

Read the top line of my last post, I wasn't even talking to you unless you're Jimmymarsbar as well?
I've absolutely no idea what you're saying as you don't use punctuation marks but if I hurt your's & the other fella's egos in some way, then I apologize.
Btw Poojoe, I hope you get the van sorted which was the object of your post before I got myself into a willy fencing competition with the other two.
Post what the answer to your problem was when you get it fixed.

 

[reliable406]

Hi sorry was out earlier and when the forum got colditz grade security on passwords i could no longer log in on mobile !!

The camshaft pulley has a hole into the head casting the crankpin hole is BEHIND the starter look at threads for locking pin locations all 2 litre HDI engines are the same basic pin layout.

I understand what your saying about it runs ok etc but your only incorrect reading in live data is the cam and crank sync being no this costs nothing to check and as i say could be the root cause. the engines will run up to 2 teeth out either way but normally they still say yes even when a tooth out !!

Reason i say check the belt is that IF it has jumped you may have a more serious problem lurking further in BECAUSE of the belt jumping and the more you say the more it sounds like this is the case.

Crank woodruff key should face upwards when cam is pinned but you really should have pinned it before removing crank pulley as you will notice it is adjustable !!

 

[Poojoe]

Hi Steo,
Thank you for your help, all help much appreciated.

 

[Poojoe]

Hi Reliable,
No probs, thanks very much for getting back with that great info.
I see it now so will be able to lock it today.
Ok I got that about the woodruff key. I'll change the belt and pump whilst I'm here anyway and will report back on whether they lined up with the holes ok.
Crikey thanks a bunch. I'm feeling a bit more confident now about what I'm doing and if it's not the cause it's another thing eliminated and It needs the belt doing anyway it said -20,000 on the service display, The guy who had it before was a courier and it looks like he did the bare minimum to keep it rolling. Thank you. very mucho

Hi sorry was out earlier and when the forum got colditz grade security on passwords i could no longer log in on mobile !!

The camshaft pulley has a hole into the head casting the crankpin hole is BEHIND the starter look at threads for locking pin locations all 2 litre HDI engines are the same basic pin layout.

I understand what your saying about it runs ok etc but your only incorrect reading in live data is the cam and crank sync being no this costs nothing to check and as i say could be the root cause. the engines will run up to 2 teeth out either way but normally they still say yes even when a tooth out !!

Reason i say check the belt is that IF it has jumped you may have a more serious problem lurking further in BECAUSE of the belt jumping and the more you say the more it sounds like this is the case.

Crank woodruff key should face upwards when cam is pinned but you really should have pinned it before removing crank pulley as you will notice it is adjustable !!