[grumpyoldgit]

I wonder if we could sort out the diesel emissions debate?

As I understand it, the new Euro 6 standard (adBlue) are extremely clean emitting low levels of CO2 and Low or next to negligible Nox. I noted in a the "Is PCP a good option?" thread Dautres has said he'd hand back his 3008 in three years time sighting the Diesel engine debate as one of his reasons. Is he correct in his thinking on this?

Or am I missing something? As far as I can see it, the respective European governments are not slating the newer engines but suggesting the older cars with less efficient and cleaner engines (ie Euro 4 & Euro 5 and older).

People who have bought into a car with a Euro 6 engine need not worry in my opinion. It's all about Government finding an excuse to tax Diesels a bit more as they get less pence per mile in tax than a petrol version.

What do you think?

Grumpy.

 

[Coast]

Absolutely as you say ... the adBlue and EURO6 will not be banned nor getting excluded from any cities etc.

In 2016, 57% of all cars sold were diesels, that's 57% potentiel voters and when everything is said and done, they need votes to get anything through (democracy you know ;D)

So yes, I think that the older diesels without the adBlue etc. is in danger of being banned in SOME cities and maybe even in some countries - but they would NEVER dare to touch a market with over 50% of their voters.

- Mercedes, Audi/VW and BMW also has to much influence in the german goverment to let a "total ban" slide.

also the "ban" is a 2025 thing and that's just when they are TALKING about it - so yeah, that's my thought about it

(and sorry if I sometimes don't make sense or spell things wrong - english is not my main language)

I wonder if we could sort out the diesel emissions debate?

As I understand it, the new Euro 6 standard (adBlue) are extremely clean emitting low levels of CO2 and Low or next to negligible Nox. I noted in a the "Is PCP a good option?" thread Dautres has said he'd hand back his 3008 in three years time sighting the Diesel engine debate as one of his reasons. Is he correct in his thinking on this?

Or am I missing something? As far as I can see it, the respective European governments are not slating the newer engines but suggesting the older cars with less efficient and cleaner engines (ie Euro 4 & Euro 5 and older).

People who have bought into a car with a Euro 6 engine need not worry in my opinion. It's all about Government finding an excuse to tax Diesels a bit more as they get less pence per mile in tax than a petrol version.

What do you think?

Grumpy.

 

[pinkaardvark]

My concerns are

1: Joe public is not discerning/educated to the level of understanding emissions control levels so will generally just start to favour diesels less, and drive down resale irrespectively.

2: The government are very lazy when it comes to addressing these things, their easiest way of targeting things will be to increase the duty escalator for diesel, so we will all pay regardless of emissions. The emissions reduction technology has reduced the value in burning heavy oil, so price increase may be the coffin nail.

3: Evidence is coming out daily to suggest diesel is even worse than reported. Now regardless of the truth to that science, their is an eco brigade that will use that info and also councils/local government who will benefit from it being a convenient excuse to A: Generate more revenue and B: introduce Road pricing which has always proved difficult to get in via other means.

Personally its all just ridiculous in that car pollution, especially from modern diesels is tiny in comparison to shipping/industry/aviation.

 

[grumpyoldgit]

Thanks Coast nicely explained.

Pinkaardvark, further to what you have said, I read over the weekend the UK produces 2% of global pollution. Considering we're in the top 10 wealthiest countries in the world I thing we do very well in the pollution stakes as a nation and yet we are still being hammered by successive governments and the eternal tree huggers. I also read a while back China are still building coal fired power stations at a rate of 2 a month.

Whatever we do as a nation with the diesel emissions it will eventually become futile due to the other countries around the world not doing their bit and also of course the ever expanding human population.

I understand it's also about the pollution in the cities and towns of the UK too but looking at London as an example with Heathrow on it's western flanks and the prevailing wind coming from the West. Should they not move Heathrow to say where Stansted is if they want to reduce pollution in London.

Sorry Essex but just playing devil's advocate...

Grumpy

 

[storeman]

And how many sup[posedly eco cars do you see the top rank politicians being chaufered around in. They are nearly all in the range of what could be classed as hi spec limo's to ferry just one person and the driver. It is and always has been and will be One rule for the ordianary people and another more favourable law for the rich, powerful and influential.

Democracy at it's finest

 

[Dautres]

The diesel debate isn’t my main reason for handing back the car in three years’ time Grumpy and my next car could well be a diesel although I am rather taken with the idea of a plug-in hybrid. As pinkaardvark says it’s the public’s perception of the health dangers posed by diesel that I’m worried about and why I don’t particularly want to own a diesel car outright.

I do a lot of my driving in France so having diesel cars has an economic advantage over petrol cars because of the cheaper price and better fuel consumption but this is changing because the Government wants to bring the prices in line.

I thought I read somewhere that Peugeot were expecting sales of diesel cars to outstrip petrol in France, but the schedule of vehicle choices on the French forum shows petrol slightly ahead of diesel so the tide looks as though it is turning in petrol’s favour, for the 3008 at least.

 

[pinkaardvark]

I do wonder what would happen if they legislated such that people gave up on diesel. I suspect people would discover the lies as yet undiscovered.

1: Small petrol engines with turbos are great at emissions tests because they are not under load, but when the turbo kicks in emissions go through the roof.

2: You can't tow or drive serious weight with small petrol engines, so we would see a return the v6/v8 or large turbo petrols to fill the gaps. 50% of companies like peugeot may currently be diesel, but BMW and mercedes that's nearly 90% and Range Rover.. I reckon they rarely sell a petrol any more.

I would have loved to buy the 1.2 3 cylinder version of the 3008 but it would be useless towing my 1.5 tonne caravan

 

[Coast]

And again...

The EURO6 is gone to a maximum of 0.080 NOx down from 0.180 in the EURO5...

and on petrol engines, it's a maximum of 0.060 NOx... so they can't really argue that much with the EURO6 ^^

plus the fact that a petrol engine has a maximum of 1.0 CO (carbon monoxide) where a EURO6 diesel has a max of 0.5 CO...

So again - I'm 99.9% sure that all EURO6 diesels will stand clear of whatever will happen ... and they won't punish diesel drivers by raising the price higher than petrol, because that would harm so many things like businesses etc. which will end up costing the countries more in tax losses than what they will gain.

My guess is that in about 2020 (or so) will be 'large' rise on the yearly cost of the EURO2,3,4,5 and maybe some cities will charge or even ban those cars (and people with the EURO6 engines will go free...

 

[Sp4rkst4rt3r]

To open up another avenue into the Diesel/Petrol debate has anyone considered the fact that the emissions test begins "EURO".......

We (GB) bought into the "Save the Planet" due to Euro pressure and I believe we are ahead of the majority of Europe and the rest of the world.

Now that we are not in "Europe" any more (cough!!!) maybe our Government will relax the strict "Emissions" regulations as per USA.....

I'm not saying this would be a good thing because we are f**king up the future for our siblings but for as long as countries like China are just catching up (and overtaking) with the industrial revolution, can we still be expected to "Get/stay inline" with Europe if they no longer have an influence on how we control emissions.

I believe this is a serious issue and none of the current Political Parties hoping to get elected have raised this issue in their Election Policies (An election promise or campaign promise is a promise or guarantee made to the public by a candidate or political party that are trying to win an election. Election promises may be instrumental in getting an official elected to office. Election promises are often abandoned once in office).

Maybe the tide will turn but I doubt it as the Car Industries have invested a lot of time/money into Zero Emission transportation.

Just a thought...........

 

[storeman]

(An election promise or campaign promise is a promise or guarantee made to the public by a candidate or political party that are trying to win an election. Election promises may be instrumental in getting an official elected to office. Election promises are often abandoned once in office).

And a political party reneging on their election campaign promises is unheard of. Come on lets face the facts. Regardless of what any party promises in the campaign it will always be the case that they actually do a U turn and carry out the opposite of some of the things they promised.

We will not double prescription charges said one campign intimating that these charges would stay as they are. They won and fair enough they did keep their promise. They didn't double the charges but tripled them.

We won't increase university fees promised one party but when they partnered to form a coalition they had no problems publicly backing the party they partnered with in increasing tuition fees.

I could go on but there is no need as we are all aware that we get told lies by all the parties but unfortunately there are still so many that believe politicians don't turn their backs on the promises they made trying to woo us into voting for them.

Every government will raise income through taxation and they always hammer the soft targets like tobacco, alcohol and the motorist either with fuel taxation, excise duty, emmisions related tax or any combintion of those mentioned and likely more I haven't thought of.

If everybody stopped smoking, drinking and driving the goverment would be in a mess then would likely tax the air we breathe and tap water would cost the same as champagne. We'd even likely get taxed on the time we spend in the sun (but here in the UK that wouldn't amount to much :nono: )

 

[Brilec]

I don't know a political party that hasn't gone back on a promise yet.

But in the UK it's all about getting more money. In France you have a sticker (Crit Air) to put on your windscreen, and the poorer categories will not be allowed into some city centres on bad days. Here in the UK we find things like parking permits for ALL diesel cars cost twice as much as for a petrol engine. Nothing about age or Euro anything, all.

 

[Agmuns]

In Norway they are banning _all_ diesel cars when pollution is too high during the winter, and all diesel lorries except Euro6 lorries.

Some car manufacturers have said they see no reason to further develop the diesel engine because it is too expensive. It's a matter of time before the diesel engine is dead in cars in Norway.

Because of the ban, diesel dropped from 75% market share to around 30% in a couple of years (new cars).

 

[Coast]

That's in Oslo right? (not in the entire country? ) ...

And that will just be a stupid choice if they ban it (for real) they'll lose a lot of tourism (from people driving around scandinavia) seeing that most on long roadtrips drive diesels ... but they will soon figure out that it's the wrong approach to the problem... and no, Euro6 isn't worse than EURO6 petrol ^^

In Norway they are banning _all_ diesel cars when pollution is too high during the winter, and all diesel lorries except Euro6 lorries.

Some car manufacturers have said they see no reason to further develop the diesel engine because it is too expensive. It's a matter of time before the diesel engine is dead in cars in Norway.

Because of the ban, diesel dropped from 75% market share to around 30% in a couple of years (new cars).

 

[Agmuns]

That's in Oslo right? (not in the entire country? ) ...

And that will just be a stupid choice if they ban it (for real) they'll lose a lot of tourism (from people driving around scandinavia) seeing that most on long roadtrips drive diesels ... but they will soon figure out that it's the wrong approach to the problem... and no, Euro6 isn't worse than EURO6 petrol ^^

It was first used in Oslo, but they have said they are going to ban diesel cars in other large cities as well if the pollution gets too high. But it is only the days with high pollution, not entirely. In Oslo we are talking about 3-4 days during the winter (if it gets cold enough and no wind).

On a more serious sidenote: the politicians are actually planning to stop sales on new cars with combustion engines from 2025. It's unlikely they will ban new cars with petrol or diesel engines, but I guess they will make it too expensive compared to electric (and hydrogen electric) cars.

 

[Nagaman]

My concerns are

1: Joe public is not discerning/educated to the level of understanding emissions control levels so will generally just start to favour diesels less, and drive down resale irrespectively.

2: The government are very lazy when it comes to addressing these things, their easiest way of targeting things will be to increase the duty escalator for diesel, so we will all pay regardless of emissions. The emissions reduction technology has reduced the value in burning heavy oil, so price increase may be the coffin nail.

3: Evidence is coming out daily to suggest diesel is even worse than reported. Now regardless of the truth to that science, their is an eco brigade that will use that info and also councils/local government who will benefit from it being a convenient excuse to A: Generate more revenue and B: introduce Road pricing which has always proved difficult to get in via other means.

Personally its all just ridiculous in that car pollution, especially from modern diesels is tiny in comparison to shipping/industry/aviation.

I agree
Public perception is a very real threat if you are selling back into a city market.
Us country folk will be ok.

 

[Nagaman]

Volvo are seriously considering ending diesel production.

 

[Huge]

Diesel - no future?

I have read that a number of car manufacturers are hedging their bets on the future need for diesel and petrol cars. Renault (Nissan) also had the view that diesels had a limited future and I am sure the other manufacturers have a similar plan. However, the idea that there will be no more petrol/diesel cars after 2025, which is what some papers have said is does not make sense - cannot see a battery powered HGV being economically sensible in that timescale. Clearly, policies will develop and change as time passes on. For me I am happy with a EURO 6 diesel and come 2025 may well be too decrepit to be bothered driving.

 

[Coast]

Ofc combustion engines will end someday, but I highly doubt it will be in 2025 - I can see that >50% will be either full electric or hybrids by then, but I think we will see 2030 before all production has ended and then about 10 years more to be in a world with >90% electric or hybrids.

That would be somewhat realistic.

It was first used in Oslo, but they have said they are going to ban diesel cars in other large cities as well if the pollution gets too high. But it is only the days with high pollution, not entirely. In Oslo we are talking about 3-4 days during the winter (if it gets cold enough and no wind).

On a more serious sidenote: the politicians are actually planning to stop sales on new cars with combustion engines from 2025. It's unlikely they will ban new cars with petrol or diesel engines, but I guess they will make it too expensive compared to electric (and hydrogen electric) cars.

 

[reliable406]

We will not see an end to internal combustion engines till there is no oil left in the ground the oil companies will make sure of that !!

 

[Agmuns]

Ofc combustion engines will end someday, but I highly doubt it will be in 2025 - I can see that >50% will be either full electric or hybrids by then, but I think we will see 2030 before all production has ended and then about 10 years more to be in a world with >90% electric or hybrids.

That would be somewhat realistic.

They will not stop producing cars with combustion engine in 2025. The politicians in Norway want to stop sales of cars with combustion engines in 2025 at the latest. The combustion engine will be with us for decades.

To be honest, I thought my 2013 Focus was going to be my last car with combustion engine. After that I've bought a 108 and a 3008 - both with petrol engines ...

The technology is great and works perfectly well today, but the manufacturers are so insanely slow to start building full electric family cars. I see no reason why we should be burning dinosaurs in 2017 (other than the lack of available cars).