[Nebema]

Help! I'm having serious problems with the clutch on my 207 59 Plate deisel at the moment. Initially the master cylinder failed at the beginning of December, had it replaced (non genuine Pug part) and it failed again within a couple of weeks. Replaced a 2nd time and failed again early January. Replaced again with a genuine pug part, lasted almost a month then failed again and clutch died too. Had a new clutch kit fitted end of January and it never felt right - clutch pedal too soft, juddering when slowing down etc. And lo and behold master cylinder failed again last weekend. Garage replaced yesterday and it failed again before they even got it off the forecourt for a test drive. They fitted another and I now have the car back. However... clutch is still spongey and juddering.
All of the replacement bits have been done under warranty by the garage so I've not had any additional cost but it's getting to the point that I daren't go anywhere in the flipping thing.
It's not a Peugeot garage but my local one who I have used for years and have never had problems with but I can't help but think they are missing something somewhere for this to keep happening. I'm loathe to pay dealership garage prices unless I REALLY have to. Anyone have any idea what is wrong with my clutch???
And before you say it, I've been driving over 20 years and this is only the 2nd time I've needed a clutch replacing - very capable female driver here! :nod:

 

[storeman]

To be honest, the bit about being female wasn't necessary. I wouldn't have known your gender by the forum name.

In what way have all these master cylinders been failing?
Without knowing how they failed it's kind of difficult to point towards a possible solution. Just replacing failed parts is not repairing the fault. It needs looking at properly and finding out what is causing the same part to fail over and over. They obviously are having problems diagnosing the root cause so maybe it is time to take it somewhere else.

 

[Nebema]

Hi Storeman, I was anticipating comments about riding the clutch, burning it out etc - just wanted you to know I'm not a 'boy racer' lol
The garage said it's one of the internal seals on the master cylinder that's failing, the cylinders are bought from LUK, so they're not cheap unknown brands and they've not all been from one batch as the garage have checked this themselves (they're as miffed as I am tbh.) Plus one of them was a genuine Pug cylinder.
I'm just wondering if there's something specific to Pugs that needs to be done/adjusted/added etc?
This is my first Peugeot, I've had it 3 years and never had a problem with it until this but I know sometimes there are things that are not common knowledge. My last car was a Renault and I got issues with that which turned out to be caused by the dephaser pulley - only identified by someone who had gone through the same thing with theirs.
I am already considering another garage but it's the usual case of finding someone who wont rip me off and can actually fix it.

 

[Old Pug]

This all sounds ridiculous, how many master cylinders? five ? or is it six?
one or two is unlucky but that many,no way. Something strange is wrong with the car,(or the guys working on it) swapping the master cylinder just cures it temperately.
Do some research and find a long standing small independent Peugeot/Citroen specialist who has had plenty of experience with these models.Tell him your tale of woe and hopefully it will get sorted.

 

[Nebema]

7 if you count the one that never made it off the garage forecourt
If anyone is from the West Yorkshire region and could recommend anywhere I would appreciate it!

 

[stripe88]

thinking outside the box here, but any chance someone has topped up with the wrong stuff? eg diesel will melt the seals....and the brake seals.

last master i had fail was due to a worn/stiff thrust bearing but this doesnt seem to be the case.

other clutch problems could be down to a worn dmf if your car has one fitted.

would flush out all the brake fluid for new if it were mine.

 

[storeman]

To be fair, I can't really see how riding the clutch would cause a master cylinder to fail that quickly and I've struggled to find any driver habit that would conceivably be the cause and failed.

The only thing I can conceivably think of is debris in the fluid damaging the seal. Having had the cylinder replaced so many times I would expect at least one complete fluid change rahter than just a top up and bleeding. Don't really know what material the pipes to the cylinder from the reservoir or from the cylinder to the slave are made of but maybe one of the pipes is breaking down drawing the debris into the master cylinder. Could be worth replacing both pipes, emptying the reservoir with the master cylinder disconnected then doing a full clutch and brake bleeding with fresh clean fluid.

As Old Pug says, One new one failing is bad luck, two is getting beyond a koke but seven is simply not acceptable. I accept that the guys at the garage can't be total cowboys or you wouldn't have used them for so long and I've never heard of a car eating so many master cylinders in it's lifetime never mind such a short period of time so it's perhaps a very rare occurence, so much so that no-one so far has a definitive solution. I'm just throwing an idea onto the table for consideration and it could be totally wrong but it's the only thing I can think of based on the info you have been given.

If there is a local Peugeot / Citroen specialist it may be worth contacting them to see if they have any experience with this strange problem.

 

[Nebema]

thinking outside the box here, but any chance someone has topped up with the wrong stuff? eg diesel will melt the seals....and the brake seals.

last master i had fail was due to a worn/stiff thrust bearing but this doesnt seem to be the case.

other clutch problems could be down to a worn dmf if your car has one fitted.

would flush out all the brake fluid for new if it were mine.

Not sure what you mean by topped up with the wrong stuff. It's a deisel car and only I drive it. The only thing I've had to top up is the screen wash.
Funny you should mention the dmf, I've been searching a lot trying to find an answer. Nearly every site I've been on has said the flywheel should be replaced or refurbished when the clutch is replaced. I don't think mine was, I have yet to find the invoice and check but I'm almost sure. A failing flywheel can cause a soft clutch that's slow to rise, (yep), juddering (yep) the need to depress the clutch almost immediately when braking (yep), a rattle when the engine is shut off (yep), slow acceleration (yep) and difficulty engaging first gear (yep intermittently).
Would any or all of this cause issues with the cylinder? Or cause something else that could affect the cylinder? I know the constantly having to step on the clutch from the moment I start to brake is reducing the clutch life but would it cause such a quick failure of a master cylinder? I think not but I wanted to ask because I'm not very mechanically minded when it comes to stuff like this.
All I know is that before all this it moved like muck off a shovel yet since the new clutch was fitted it doesn't have the power it used to have and the consistent obvious sign is that the clutch has also been lacking any resistance since the replacement and the master cylinder doesn't last 2 minutes.
I'm due to travel down to Oxford at the weekend for a wedding and I'm dreading going because I'm not confident I'll get there and back!
If there's a chance replacing the flywheel will sort all this then I'd rather pay a few more £100 than have to scrap it, (because it is (was) too good to scrap) and buy another car - which I can't really afford to do anyway. It's got less than 95k on the clock which is nothing for a deisel

Finally found the clutch replacement invoice, no mention of DMF/flywheel.

 

[rustyroger]

I would rule out a whole batch of faulty master cylinders as has been said.
Is the pedal heavy to operate?. If it needs excessive pressure to operate then the master cylinder wont last long.
That might be the tube to the slave cylinder, the slave cylinder itself, or the clutch diaphragm. The release bearing, clutch plate, and flywheel won't cause your symptoms although you do describe bad flywheel symptoms as well.

Roger.

 

[Old Pug]

Nebema, what about these guys? The Peugeot Specialist, Peugeot Specialists in Nuneaton

They are a long way from me so I personally cant comment on them, but they seem to tick all the boxes with Peugeot's.

 

[Nebema]

I would rule out a whole batch of faulty master cylinders as has been said.
Is the pedal heavy to operate?. If it needs excessive pressure to operate then the master cylinder wont last long.
That might be the tube to the slave cylinder, the slave cylinder itself, or the clutch diaphragm. The release bearing, clutch plate, and flywheel won't cause your symptoms although you do describe bad flywheel symptoms as well.

Roger.

Unfortunately no, it's like stepping on fresh air. Usually you get a small amount of depression on the clutch pedal before you feel some resistance but with this one there's hardly any resistance at all.

 

[Nebema]

Nebema, what about these guys? The Peugeot Specialist, Peugeot Specialists in Nuneaton

They are a long way from me so I personally cant comment on them, but they seem to tick all the boxes with Peugeot's.

Appreciate the suggestion but they are a fair way away from me too, I'm in West Yorkshire.

 

[stripe88]

had a few worn dmfs in the past, if a spring goes the clutch people will spot it, however i have had the centre bearing wear which results in a long pedal release, although ok to drive.

park next to a wall open passenger window and press clutch in/out, listen for any clanks or strange noises.

from what i see on the net only the higher power derv has the dmf and the lower has the solid flywheel, dmf will be expensive though.

another thought i had, one or two over on the ford site have flipped their seal in the master due to to much pressure or a dry cylinder, yes i know sounds crazy, but if your master goes again i would lube the cylinder with brake fluid and work it by hand, then pressure bleed at a low pressure.

oh and a new clutch on the peugeot will feel very easy to press, this is how it should be.