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Simple answer here lads , p2191 is timing related.

Timing will be outwith the tolerance and it will probably require a full change of the timing parts which is around 17 individual parts to do it properly. Not the 4 or 5 u get in an ebay kit.

Same with the tools to do the timing, cheap ebay kits or aftermarket timing kits don't do the job properly, doesn't set the timing within tolerance so your timing will still be out once "mechanic has done" the job.

garages and mechanics will say they have the tools but I bet they don't, the camshaft locking tool is over 600 quid from Peugeot and they rarely sell it to people, and garages wont have 600 quid to spend on a tool they might use once a year.

your ltft is indication of how far timing is out, and a percentage basically of how much extra fuel you are using.
 

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Thanks ADS77 for the input. It looks like timing could be the reason, but I see that quite a few people have done the timing bu the issue is still there. I guess timing could be one of the reasons, but it is not 100% certain that is timing, as it seems it could be other things as well..i.e. oxygen sensor, injectors etc..Those LTFT is really high on mine at the moment +29% and I got an engine light as well. The car is at the mechanic at the moment and he mentioned that we might be going for timing work. He is trying to pinpoint the fault. However, in terms of the LTFT, I think it would be really noticeable if I was spending 29% more fuel! I don't see the fuel consumption that high..Not sure how you are supposed to interpret the LTFT though.. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Hi George03.

i had the same thoughts, everywhere "outside" of the french and BMW mini car community, where they have high LTFT they get results with replacement of lambda's, cam / crank sensors, map and maf sensors, poss' weak fuel injectors and fuel delivery, nobody mentions the timing being out as an issue. i have replaced the timing chain but am willing to have it checked as a precaution and, if my efforts were poor, i will happily eat humble pie on the timing issue. however, this weekend, i went to fill up with fuel as the gauge was reading "air" and was not able to put more than £36 in. checking the fuel gauge again, it was only showing only 3/4 full. i now believe i may have an issue at the rear end in the fuel tank. i can get away with this for short while but there may be a fuel delivery problem caused by faulty wiring in the fuel sender / pump unit, i will ask the peugeot tech' to take some pictures of the cam-timing if he can, i will post a response some time next week. i will look at the fuel sender at a later date. also, i too was not experiencing the high fuel consumption associated with the high LTFT, achieving approx' 43mpg on motorways, 33 - 36 around town (without booting it !) more later...
 

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29% more fuel is pretty noticebale i would say, we have seen cars do 120 miles per 1/4 tank, then when timing was out they were down to 80 for the same amount!
there is peugeot tech bulletin out for the fault code P2191 which says timing should be checked to make sure it conforms within the tolerances, now the tolerances are tiny -2.1 degrees to +0.5 or something is minuscule as that, which to naked eye u wont see, and with cheap tools u will not see it either as they are poorly fitting and have too much play.
 

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really don't understand people who just throw money replacing parts in the hope it fixes the issue at hand, must have plenty spare cash lying around ! really is like playing pin the tail on the donkey but using a car !

same as oh get the ecu updated, the ecu hasn't failed its programming, its still trying to achieve the set targets for the car, but the mechanics of the car are causing the issue to bring up fault codes. Same as with clearing the fault code and car apparently runs fine, the code will still come back once it hits the parameters for the activation of the fault code.

the timing can be a touch out or a mile out and still the car will feel fine to drive, cause the ecu is adapting to hit the target air fuel ratio its programmed too.
car will feel fine to drive cause that's how the car has been for X amount of time, so your used to it, like the ecu, the driver adapts too and thinks that its normal
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Hi. I agree that "throwing parts" at it in the hope that it fixes it is generally a realky stoopid idea. However, whilst i dont have pots of cash to waste, i can perform most of the tasks at zero labour costs and, having worked for the local dealer, i know that, despite their "experience" they too would be playing a guessing game. So far, if i had paid dealer rates i would be in for twice the value of the car, as it stands, i'm in for about £400 - £500 max. I will get the stealership to check the timing and after that, it's match time!!.
 

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do u not think that they would have seen the fault code and checked to see if was any TSB for it and gone from there? so wouldn't be playing a guessing game, they would be checking the most common issue and either confirming it or ruling it out.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
hi. although it's been 8 years since i was there, i went in for parts and was greeted by at least 8 tech's that i used to work with. when i worked at this particular dealership the service department were given an ultimatum, "make more money or we close the service department down and only have a parts department and a sales department, as a direct result, the tech's were advised to take every possible step to fix the customers vehicles, starting with the easiest and ending with the most expensive. their thoughts were, as the bills progress, the client will reach either a point of no-return or a point where they scrap / exchange the vehicle. i know this as i was there!! it worked to a certain degree, especially on lease vehicles and some warranty issues, most clients went with the first few fixes but then realised that the dealership only viewed them as "wallets" !! that's why i left. so, knowing the staff as i do, i can predict they will say: "diagnose fault, replace sensor 1, sorry, didn't work... sensor 2, sorry, sensor 3.................. oh, now it's saying the timing is out, replace ALL the parts required".... (that would be the fat end of £1200 so, i think i'd rather have replaced all the items required to that point, then (and only then) take it to them for diagnosing. all i need now is a yes / no on the accuracy of the timing, then, it's a choice of paying the tech to do it or scrap the car (trade it in for a different vehicle that is!) it's a shame that i'm almost the opposite end of the country to you or i'd have popped it in!! Cheers for your input, i will let you all (both) know when i have been Dealershipped!! Cheers. p.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
right guys, it is time for me to eat a massive chunk of "Humble Pie" !! (which is something i don't generally do but, this time, i have been proven wrong in quite a big way)!

despite pretty much every site i have looked at, which deals with engines / running issues / low-level tuning etc completely ignoring the possibility that the prince engine (should be called a pauper engine!) has a timing issue when the long-term-fuel-trims are way-way out. Even the grease-monkeys at the local Pug dealership only work on the fact that you have (or don't have) a warning light on and will only react to that light and its associated fault code. if everything on their "Diagbox" seems ok, they will start by suggesting the replacement of their branded and expensive parts, one-by-one (i know, i used to work there). to that end, i have replaced all the sensors, solenoids, probes etc which, to my mind, is good sense due to their age, and as a direct result, the engine did run better, but, the continued High Positive long-term-fuel-trim kept causing issues. i have replaced the timing chain and "thought" i'd done a good job, (despite the cheap tools i used), i will confirm that the cheap tools will give you issues, but, with a little perseverance, you can get it right! so, i re-did the Cam-shaft alignments, setting up using the cheap (baggy) tools, (and a 6" engineers rule and an inclinometer) i now have an LTFT of Negative 5.5 ( :oops: ) and it has stayed there for 80 miles (when, by now it would have been positive 29 or more) this negative figure means the engine is adding less fuel (or wants more air) to the mix. this would be due to the age of the engine, the build up of gunk on the inlet valves, the restriction of the air filter and no doubt some oily-residues on the sensors in the air ductings. so, i will run it for a little more and when i have the pennies, will get the valves walnut blasted (another garage i worked at can do it for me!) it will then get a new set of sparks and possibly a less restrictive air filter (getting rid of all that plastic under the bonnet) so, here it is (coughs to clear throat) ADS77, THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED INSISTENCE THAT THE TIMING WAS THE ISSUE, AND YOUR PERSISTENCE WITH THIS (old) FOOL-OF-A-DIY-MERCHANT! please accept my humble apologies for doubting you, sadly, i can't stretch to a bunch of flowers (spent too much on sensors. lol) but i hope you have a fantastic Valentines day!! thank you.
 

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takes a big man to say publically he was wrong!

love the way u have done it btw !!

when u reset the timing, did u reuse the cam bolts? as they are stretch bolts so can only be used the once.

on the inlets being walnut blasted, make sure do a full oil change too,
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Hi, happy to admit when im wrong!! i always use new bolts where needed, however, i didnt use a new crank bolt as i didnt think!! Anyhoo, as they are about the least expensive things that the dealer sells i'm gonna buy a couple more complete sets for the future. As for walnut blasting, has anyone tried simply brushing the crud out with a long bendy drain brush or maybe a thin brass brush, available on e bay for a few quid? I was thinking, make sure the valves are closed, insert the bendy brush and agitate the crap off, hoovering whilst i did it!! Then, blasting the cleaner valve with sea foam? Just a thought and could be done at every service. Wouldn't need to fully remove the inlet manifold from the engine bay either. As for the engine, 90 miles and still at -5.5, however, the turbo boost isn't quite as "boosty" as it used to be so i'm going to refit the turbo bypass adapter valve thingy (with the stronger spring) clean all the sensors and do a complete adaptions reset tomorrow (if Dennis allows!) Oh, and check that i havent cracked a plastic pipe under the manifold. Next week maybe i can stretch to some new sparks, an aftermarket cold air induction kit, a service and i'll see how much oily mud is in the intercooler! Anyhoo, thanks for your support, again, consider me "taught a lesson". P.
 

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as long as didn't undo the crank bolt when "retimed" it, u should be ok!

as for the method for the inlets, depends how much of a bad back you want, its an absolute killer trying to do it manually, we tried it before did the walnut blast set up, and half way thru the 1st cylinder, I was in absolute bits with my back lol

its a funny substance that comes off the inlets, more rubbery than anything, and if get a big chunk of it u can actually stretch it in fingers its that plyable.

issue with the inlets is there is a 10mm bolt underneath the inlet that is a rite bugger to get off, even to remove the top of the inlet so have access to look into the ports, once that 10mm bolt comes off when we do the cars, it soon vanishes and never gets put back on lol
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Hiya, the 10mm bolt on the lower bracket near the throtyle body!! Done that one already when i was trying to get the vac' solenoid off!! Yep, didnt go back on!! My back is totalled anyway so i might just give it a go with the brushes, save myself a couple of hundred quid!! Cheers chap. P.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
ok, hopefully, this is the last post (from me) on the original issue.
yesterday i cleaned the maf and map sensors although they weren't really that dirty, i fitted a new Upstream lambda and the pressure improvement kit for the turbo diverter valve. (which i took off after the last timing adjustment)

i used Diagbox and reset the adaptions and took it for a "spirited" drive up the A3 and back, (in Storm Dennis), and once i returned home i checked the LTFT using my bluetooth OBD plug-in and "Torque-Pro"............





............................. LTFT was a massive ZERO!!

Blimey, it means i must have actually done something right! (i don't doubt it will change during the shorter, less spirited work journeys) but for me, this is a positive Win.

thank you to ADS77 again, (i'm sure your middle name should be Percy-verance!) and to those other sites such as E-tuners who kindly offer plenty of free advice to those who are willing to try for themselves.

bye-for-now.

p.
 

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right guys, it is time for me to eat a massive chunk of "Humble Pie" !! (which is something i don't generally do but, this time, i have been proven wrong in quite a big way)!

despite pretty much every site i have looked at, which deals with engines / running issues / low-level tuning etc completely ignoring the possibility that the prince engine (should be called a pauper engine!) has a timing issue when the long-term-fuel-trims are way-way out. Even the grease-monkeys at the local Pug dealership only work on the fact that you have (or don't have) a warning light on and will only react to that light and its associated fault code. if everything on their "Diagbox" seems ok, they will start by suggesting the replacement of their branded and expensive parts, one-by-one (i know, i used to work there). to that end, i have replaced all the sensors, solenoids, probes etc which, to my mind, is good sense due to their age, and as a direct result, the engine did run better, but, the continued High Positive long-term-fuel-trim kept causing issues. i have replaced the timing chain and "thought" i'd done a good job, (despite the cheap tools i used), i will confirm that the cheap tools will give you issues, but, with a little perseverance, you can get it right! so, i re-did the Cam-shaft alignments, setting up using the cheap (baggy) tools, (and a 6" engineers rule and an inclinometer) i now have an LTFT of Negative 5.5 ( :oops: ) and it has stayed there for 80 miles (when, by now it would have been positive 29 or more) this negative figure means the engine is adding less fuel (or wants more air) to the mix. this would be due to the age of the engine, the build up of gunk on the inlet valves, the restriction of the air filter and no doubt some oily-residues on the sensors in the air ductings. so, i will run it for a little more and when i have the pennies, will get the valves walnut blasted (another garage i worked at can do it for me!) it will then get a new set of sparks and possibly a less restrictive air filter (getting rid of all that plastic under the bonnet) so, here it is (coughs to clear throat) ADS77, THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED INSISTENCE THAT THE TIMING WAS THE ISSUE, AND YOUR PERSISTENCE WITH THIS (old) FOOL-OF-A-DIY-MERCHANT! please accept my humble apologies for doubting you, sadly, i can't stretch to a bunch of flowers (spent too much on sensors. lol) but i hope you have a fantastic Valentines day!! thank you.

Hi Paul.

Just reading the thread and was wondering how you used the steel rule and an inclinometer to set the cam timing?

I was going to buy a cheap kit but now having second thoughts.

I'm presuming the timing flats on the cams are 90 deg to the cylinder head? Would an engineers square do the same job?

Regards.

John.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
hi, would need to be quite a small engineers square! (there's a video somewhere on-line and Draper also have a PDF of their tool and where to align using the square)

yes, i did use an inclinometer and a 6" steel rule, the cheap kit is "baggy" (best description i can use!)

i found that it was useful for keeping things in a "near-enough" position while i checked / lined everything else up.

my thoughts.....

assuming that the dephaser will only dephase in a clockwise direction under oil pressure, once everything is fully cleaned and loosely assembled,
i tightened the chain with the tensioner bit from the baggy kit, (along with the tool for locking the flywheel which needed minor modification)

i tightened the cam-shaft end bolts to just over half the required torque and rotated the engine clockwise 2 times.
then, re-checked the cam alignments with the baggy tool and the rule / inclinometer, the inlet was slightly out in a clockwise direction.
i used the 27mm spanner and the torx bit to realign the shaft against the dephaser, rotating the shaft anti-clockwise by about 0.5 degrees (effectively tightening the dephaser bolt to the dephaser by a couple of Nm's)

back on my knees, and rotated the engine clockwise via the crank 2 more times. i realigned the pistons, locked the flywheel, checked the baggy tool simply dropped onto the cams and re-checked their alignments against each other (inlet and exhaust cams) and their angles. whilst i dont think i got it 100% right, (the inclinometer is a cheapy!) i was ok with where it rested. i didn't have much choice as, during initial re-assembly, i had loaded the surfaces of the dephaser / exhaust sprocket and their respective cam-shafts with thread-lock. i thought, well, it can't hurt. but it does put an urgency on the job before it hardens. (and it was nearly raining!!)

i may have another go in the future as currently, while i am only doing short stop-start types of journeys where the engine only just reaches operating temp' i am currently getting LTFT readings of between -3 and -7.7 which i am not entirely satisfied with. (i gave myself a "could do better" for this. (although those numbers are perfectly acceptable!).

the cam-shafts on my engine were able to align using the top flats and a 6" engineers rule, the correct way is to use an inclinometer to measure exactly 90 degrees to the nearest spark-plug well bridge NOT the end casting of the engine.
the engines with dual dephasers, you'll probably have to align the cams individually.

the baggy tool is still useful although not as accurate as you would need it to be, the flywheel locking tool and the chain tensioning tool were invaluable and well worth the £20 i paid for the whole kit. just remember, you'll need to grind off some of the flywheel tool rear shoulder to help it miss the sump. a little tip, get a toothbrush into the gearbox alignment hole and clean it off. once you have found the correct locking hole in the flywheel, stick some tippex on it, it'll be easier to see as you'll need to remove / refit the tool several times

hope all that helps.

Cheers.
 

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Hi Mate.

That's ace, think this is the video you referred to :-


Great help, will purchase a cheap kit just for the locking pin and chain tensioner toll.

Regards.

John.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
sadly, i can't see the video at work (blocked). I I R C it was a silent movie with 2 men in white coats, points out some important things to look at. i'll check this one out later.
for the kit, DONT buy the kit where the flywheel tool appears to be a piece of bent wire entering the back of the stubby locking tool, it must be either one where the straight thin rod enters the side of the tool or the one where it enters the side and the opposite side is shaved to 45 degrees otherwise it's a complete "C" getting the tool into the hole, let-alone trying to pop it into the very tight flywheel locating hole.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
kit 1.PNG

the one on the left is the locking tool, you'll need to file off the opposite side to the rod entering side, just the shoulder, 45 degrees to about 1/4 inch, the one on the right is the tensioner tool. so much easier than ruining a perfectly good old tensioner.
 
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