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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, newbie here so please accept my apologies for such a loooong post.
Can anyone help me?
I have a 2008 1.6thp (150) 207cc, it has just under 45k miles on the clock.
I am having intermittent turbo failure issues.
The car starts fine and idles acceptably, occasionally burbling like a slight miss-fire.

It drives well enough and has never stalled on me.
When driving in local traffic at sub-30 mph, I get the feeling like someone has pulled the handbrake on, this is an indication to me that the turbo is no longer adding its extra boost, this is confirmed by putting my accelerator foot down, hard and only achieving slow acceleration.

So far, I have:
Removed the inlet manifold, re-sealed it.
Removed the turbo vacuum solenoid, dismantled it, cleaned it, checked its operation and put it back in a slightly more accessible position, (at least 3 times now!!)
Checked the operation of its sister solenoid, under the inlet manifold, which vents the engine, the one-way valve operates correctly and I can feel it clicking in operation (so I’m assuming it works well)
Replaced the MAP and MAF sensors,
Replaced the turbo oil return pipe (that difficult one that disappears behind the turbo to the engine)
I have checked the engine PCV (in the top of the valve cover) again, it works correctly.
Checked the operation of the Vacuum pump, all ok there, plenty of vacuum.
Checked the operation / movement of the wastegate actuator both by sucking on a pipe attached to it and removing the pipe from the vacuum pipe from the actuator, all seems ok. (also checked operation during the oil feed pipe replacement)
Replaced the turbo diverter valve, twice, then added the “extra” pressure spring and seal mechanism so that it requires more pressure to open without the solenoid being actuated.
I have sprayed flammable liquids all around the inlet pipes / manifold / vacuum pipes with no change in engine attitude.
The cam-chain was replaced by an independent garage prior to my purchase, no reasoning given for this but it was at around 29k miles, while the inlet manifold was off I could see the valves were filthy so that is possibly the next job for which I need to find a garage local to Portsmouth who can do it,
Currently, (according to “torque pro” app) my LTFT is at about 28 (yes, massively high) but that generally indicates fuel trim in relation to excess air, so, I’m thinking that somewhere, air is getting in and causing this as at 28, the engine should be throwing up EML’s and Limping home, but, I have no fault codes stored or pending!!
So, my question….. have I missed anything “obvious?”
Hoping someone can give me something else to consider.
thanks to all in advance.
paul.
 

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was the LTFT showing +28 or -28?

also is the car standard or mapped?

sounds like classic timing related issue, some of the cars throw up fault codes as soon as the LTFT gets above 10 but some don't and have seen cars in the high 20's before that didn't have anything but their timing was well out.

the mileage on the car doesn't matter for the timing as if its not been done properly or looked after, the timing will go anytime. Even seen a car go 50miles after it had its timing done at a dealership!
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
hi there ADS77

Thanks for the reply,

ltft is at +28,
when the turbo is operating, the engine idles fine and accelerates as I would expect.
the short term fuel trim is acceptable as it cancels out quite a bit of the long term, meaning (I believe) that the long term trim is effectively reduced. (I could be wrong)
during this whole process, the LTFT has remained particularly high so I don't doubt the timing being out, I just can't get my head around the on / off randomness of the turbo!
I can guarantee that i'll go home this evening and it will be on / off / on / off at random points. if the timing effects the turbo operation (possibly via the ECU seeing the LTFT is sky-high) wouldn't I be without turbo all the time? I was considering buying the timing kit and re-doing it myself but have heard that some of those kits are just rubbish. my only other thought is the throttle body (just about the only bit I haven't removed or replaced), maybe the servo in there is slaving / failing but I've not found anyone else on here having found that to be at fault (although there was 1 chap on the Ds3 site!)
thanks again for yout thoughts, i'll consider that option presently. p.
 

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yeh that basically means your using 28% more fuel than u should be.

the turbo will come in and out as the ecu sees the afr change and then adjusts the fuel and air intake to hit the afr target, so hence u will see boost and no boost intermittently.

yeh your spot on about those kits u can buy, some people will say yeh they are fine and their car is fine, but we use the proper Peugeot one (£600) and when compared to the others u can buy there is only 1 that will have the timing set up properly!

its one of these things that dealers will take good money for, local family garages will say yeh they can do it, but wont have the tools and will happily take your money.

as there was a fair number of local owners in our area up here, and most are heavily modified, we took decision to spend some money on the tools and other parts needed, to help out those we know, from both local and across the UK who have travelled to us for work, and with dealership labour costs at 100 quid or more plus vat, we thought easier to do it ourselves aided by the assistance of Peugeot master techs we know and tuners for other parts on the cars.

its normally around 2 hours for a dealer to check the timing on these engines, lot of strip down and build back up unfortunately.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
hi again.
despite the tools being less than perfect for the job, I think I may still buy one and see if I can "improve" on the +28 LTFT.
if, by using the cheap kit I can get it down to below 10% it would be a great improvement.
and, what you say about the AFR / ECU / Turbo operation seems to run true, but would that really affect it when not under any load? i.e, driving on a flat road at 30mph, 1500 rpm and not accelerating? seems a bit strange to me but i'm more used to my old Isuzu powered lotus Elan, which did things "properly"

wtf were Peugeot thinking when they created this backwards arrangement? Wastegate should be opened when decelerating using engine vacuum, not some added bolt-on pump, solenoid valves and a bunch of pipes that will fatigue over time!! and did they never hear of a woodruff key?

have you ever heard of / had a faulty throttle body? not that I really need to spend next months mortgage payments on one, "just in case" !

thanks for your input, you have helped, now I know I have to take a match to it and start again!! :lol:

cheers.

p.
 

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faulty throttle bodies tend to drop the car to 3 cylinders, u would know if had one trust me lol sounds like a track car engine!

people are shocked that this engine has won award after award since it came out too!

what would highly suggest is to get proper timing parts, not the crap that they offer on ebay as their isn't anything as a timing kit which they offer, its a selection of timing parts that are fitted depending on the diagnosis of the investigation, full timing parts retail this now at £370 but cheaper with my trade discount lol

would also need other tools that normally people don't have in their tool boxes in their home garage which also adds to the cost.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
hiya.
ok, I get your point, it's about £250 just to get the timing checked, plus more time to do the job, plus parts, (at dealer retail!) so, i'd be better off buying the proper / genuine kit.
I have amassed a ton of random tools over time, spent most of my life as a service advisor in / around the trade, even spent a short time with Peugeot but, these engines were quite new then!!

sadly, most dealer tech's are a little reluctant to pass on their hard earned knowledge to the bods on the front desk, even though I have put a couple of master-techs to shame in the past.

as for the awards these engines have won, they must be the "NAFF" awards!

I think i'm going to start saving up for this job, can't sell this "PoS" until it's working properly.
(annoyingly, I really like the car, when it works!)

cheers again.
p.
 

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you will be lucky to get the tool from Peugeot, they very hesitant to sell their tools, and normally a long lead time to get them to you from france.

there will be places that do the timing jobs but they are a bit of a drive even for you down there,

do u have a torque screwdriver or torque wrench that can go to 0.6daNm ? that's a must have also.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
hiya.
I do have a torque wrench but i'm not sure of it's capacity, I will have to look later.
I think I would be able to do the job (with the right torque wrench) but I can only give "myself" a guarantee, if I have a garage carry out the work then they have to offer some form of parts and labour guarantee.
I don't know if the parts manager at the local Peugeot dealer where I worked for under a year is still there, or if he even liked me! (parts and service rarely get along like a well oiled clock!) so I wont approach them to see if they will sell me the OEM kit. I have e-mailed a local Peugeot "specialist" to see if they are interested in the job.
incidentally, as predicted, on the journey home last night, full turbo operation and on reading the LTFT this morning when reaching work, the numbers had reduced from over 28 to 25.6! which confuses the hell out of me, surely if the timing is out, it's out, so why would the numbers come down? I am going to buy a cam sensor on payday as they are quite cheap, just to rule out the possibility of that being faulty.
thank you so much for your time with this / me, it really is appreciated. I will return at some point in the near future to update this post.
thanks again. p.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
update on last post.

so, in an effort to rule out everything before going down the timing route, i have removed the vanos unit (cam timing solenoid thingy) cleaned out the 11 years of muck build-up in and on it (surprisingly not that much!) and re-installed it, drove to the local shops, came home, checked for faults...........
pending P0010 fault (power to vanos) so, as i had a bit of a journey, i thought, F***:censored: it, i'll go with the possible fault, see if it clears and then check once i get home. so, for a 130 mile motorway round-trip, i had the EML on, at half way through the journey i checked the faults, P0010 no longer "pending" now an actual fault. strangely, this did not affect the power from the engine, i still had (what i feel) to be input from the turbo. good acceleration from standstill, good acceleration from 70 to ("not" 70!) :copcar: and when at idle, it was nearly rattle / rumble free! crazy. i did check the LTFT but as there was a power fault to the vanos, it wasn't going to show an accurate reading.
i cleared the fault code and drove the 65 miles home.
once home and the engine cool enough to work on, i laboriously removed all those air-intake pipes that just get in the way, removed the pcv pipe and found a dangly loom terminal that i'd obviously not put back on properly (or AT ALL:laughatl:.)

i cleared the P0010 fault code, went and got some fuel and once home i re-checked faults, none. i calculated my fuel consumption based on the Vanos not being connected and, with 130 miles of mostly motorway and about 40 miles of local driving, my 1.6thp was doing just above 38.5mpg (which i think is good considering it's age, the guaranteed crap build-up in the intake valves and valve timing not being adjusted for 130 of those miles!)

i have since driven about 40 miles in town traffic and, currently my LTFT is a whole ZERO!:nono: (which i don't believe for one minute will stay that way). i do believe the timing is either out by a smidgen (for those reading in European, its about a thickness of an escargot trail) or the 2 other sensors (crank and camshaft) are weakening and maybe not giving a correct input to the ecu. again, in an effort to do all i can before asking a mechanic to carry out the timing, i shall replace them as a matter of course, sometime after next payday!! it really can't hurt can it?
i just hope that i'm not suffering from high power fuel pump issues as i understand that, whilst it's an easy job, it aint cheap, so, i shall hold that possibility in reserve.
thank you all for reading this, please feel free to comment / put your 2 pennies worth in, all suggestions will be considered.


hi again all (or indeed, "anyone")
further to the above extensive list of things, i have now replaced the cam and crank sensors, the timing chain and all associated items (dephaser, tensioner, vanos etc) and, sadly, i still have the high (and increasing) LTFT.
as this would indicate the engine is running somewhat leaner than it would like, i can only now assume the following.....
faulty / under pressured High-pressure-fuel-pump, failing or weak injectors, sticking inlet valve/s, possibly weak fuel delivery from the in-tank pump or, heaven forbid, faulty readings coming from the lambda's. (although they seem ok)

the ltft only increases after a bit of "spirited" driving so, i'm going to attack the fuel pump first.
would anyone know what pressures i should be expecting from the pump between the pump and the fuel rail? (at idle and under load) i have searched and searched but there's nothing concrete on this info.

once this is established, a new pump may be ordered and, fingers crossed, the LTFT will remain in the lower numbers.
any help / guidance will be greatly appreciated.

cheers all / anyone.

P.
 

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Hello my friend! I am having same issue with a Peugeot 207 1.6 thp 150 and the mechanic still hasn't found what's wrong. I am getting code P2191 air/fuel mixture too lean and Ltft is around +28%. I am getting intermittent turbo power loss, but if you clear the fault the car is running very well. At some point after some driving the issue comes back, which I am guessing has to do something with the ECU restricting power.

I was wondering if you found what was wrong with it, it could prove really helpful.. I have already spent £900 replacing solenoid valve, turbo cooling electric pump, turbo pressure valve but that issue is still there..

Thanks in advance!
George
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hello my friend! I am having same issue with a Peugeot 207 1.6 thp 150 and the mechanic still hasn't found what's wrong. I am getting code P2191 air/fuel mixture too lean and Ltft is around +28%. I am getting intermittent turbo power loss, but if you clear the fault the car is running very well. At some point after some driving the issue comes back, which I am guessing has to do something with the ECU restricting power.

I was wondering if you found what was wrong with it, it could prove really helpful.. I have already spent £900 replacing solenoid valve, turbo cooling electric pump, turbo pressure valve but that issue is still there..

Thanks in advance!
George

Hi George03

sorry for the slow reply.

so far, i have replaced:
Map, Maf, Crank and Cam sensors.
i replaced the turbo by-pass valve (blow off valve) despite it being perfectly ok
i replaced the coil packs in case they were lacking in output,
i replaced the vacuum servo underneath the inlet manifold (not a nice job)
i replaced both lambdas with compatible ones, then, genuine ones !! (££ ouch)
i replaced the Cam / timing chain, De-phaser, tensioner & vanos. (££ double ouch)
i tried the ECU/BSI/instrument cluster replacement, absolutely no difference (although there's no guarantee the
replacements were any better than the original)
i have traced all the loom wires for the upstream lambda to the loom plug at the ecu, all good there.
there are no corrosion issues from the possible coolant leak pi$$ing onto the loom!
i have sprayed flammable liquids as a very fine mist to EVERYWHERE within the engine bay and found Nothing.
i have no air leaks, i have no timing issues, i have no turbo issues, i currently have no warning lights or any
suggestion of "depolution" issues but, i do have a Peugeot-slug and an LTFT of 29+

so, following several suggestions (both direct from these pages and from browsing) i have reached absolutely no conclusion.

luckilly, i am able to do these jobs myself (along with the turbo oil return pipe)

i purchased and am teaching myself how to use DIAGBOX.

so far, despite the further expense, it has given me no more information than i get from TORQUE-Pro.

torque pro is not currently recognizing the upstream lambda, (not available on the free programme i might add)

however, it did when i first got it and the car, so, something is pointing in that direction.
instead of an air/fuel ratio of around 14.7xxx i am getting the mid 9's which is far too lean (hence the LTFT reaching for the heavens!)
Diagbox is telling me that the downstream sensor is reading "Weak" even though it should give me numbers!!
the upstream (according to diagbox) shows closed loop once warmed up

there is talk of:
possible fuel pressure issues from either / or the in-tank pump or the high pressure pump on the inlet shaft.
(they all seem fine)
again, possible issues could be a cracked internal exhaust manifold, air-leak in the exhaust, "pre-cat"
or, and quite possibly, the shite way that these engines were designed means the valves get clogged with the oily crud that comes from the engine ventilation system, causing a sticky / open valve
(i have already checked for movement / operation of the engine PCV (top left rear of the engine)
that pipe goes directly to the bottom of the inlet manifold.
what a waste of a pipe, just remove it and FIRMLY block both ends (engine and manifold)
the pipe that leads into the turbo air-intake works fine on its own.

so, for the time being, i am waiting for the EML to ignite so that i can justify taking it to the local pug dealershiite.
(where i used to work by the way!) so they can guess their little ballet-dancing socks off and suggest the things i've already done.

i'm thinking it is either a failure / fatigue of the Engine ECU programming, or, just maybe,

i bought the wrong car. 🤬

most people would have given up by now, had i had to pay cash-money for the labour to not fix this issue, i would be into the £3k mark, luckilly for me, i can do these things but electric / electronic faults are the ghost in the machine for me.
my suggestion to you would be to run it, re-set the faults after EVERY drive, save up some money and part-ex it to a peugeot dealer. let them have the problems (or the person who will buy it at auction)

i am going to give the stealership one-try and then consider my options.

best of luck with your quest for success.

p.
 

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Hi Paul,

Many thanks for your reply. This is so annoying.. It shouldn't be that difficult to find the cause of the fault I guess, but this engine seems to be a mystery.. My car is a left hand drive, so I am not sure how easy it would be to part-ex it or sell it here in the UK..😔

I thought to bring up another post here that might be helpful for you, since you can try things yourself. I don't have that luxury..

It is from the DS3 site and it seems someone replaced the injectors and things got better.. He was getting the P2191 too. I am not sure if you also got that code, but I guess the high LTFT indicate the same thing, mixture too lean..

Perhaps that could be the problem in our cases too?

 

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Discussion Starter #14
hi George.

i have poured gallons of supposedly "injector cleaning" fluids into this beast, i've run 3 bottles of Seafoam into it, increased the fuel RON, and am considering the walnut blasting of the valves, it's all a possible fix but, at £300 for the blasting with no guarantees, i just cannot run to that financially.
it's been a while since i bothered to look at the codes, i have not done that with DIAGBOX so only had generic codes which all point to excess air rather than low fuel quantity (injector faults) the car runs and idles perfectly, it's just a pain trying to climb hills without feeling that i need to get out and push!!

i think i will try once with the dealer, the, i think i will take the advice i gave you and save up for something more reliable, i believe there's a TRABANT dealership somewhere in the UK ! (lol)

although the injectors were "on my list" of To Do's.

if i get any further, despite the low visitor rate to this post, i'll add to it.

thanks for your input here, it's now a race to see who fixes theirs first !!

Cheers.

p.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
George, i have another thought.... has your engine ever had a replacement timing chain? I'm not thinking it was fitted very badly, far from it, if the chain became noisey because a guide fell apart, the considerably strong bits that will get chewed up by the chain could also find their way to the secondary chain connected to the crank shaft, this chain runs the oil pump. If the plastic got in the way, even briefly, it could force the pump to either bend slightly, strip the mounting bolts a little or even crack the pump housing. Any loss of oil pressure could cause the vanos to not adjust the dephaser pulley of the timing kit. Someone on here saw theirs had done that some time ago. Also, if the oil is hot, it becomes thinner, reducing the pressure. First things first though, i,m off out to the pound shop, gonna buy some lighter fuel and some disposable lighters as it's cold out!! Lol.
 

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Hey Paul,

No I have never changed the timing chain and have never checked the timing actually. I used to have over the years this rattling noise some times in cold mornings that apparently with these early 1.6 THP engines is coming from the chain / tensioner, but it was not a constant thing. However, last year one morning there was a huge rattling / vibration of the engine with an engine light on and then after a while it was switched off it went back to normal on its own. I then thought to preventively replace the tensioner with the newer part as I found that this job is not that difficult or expensive, so I had that replaced about a year ago.

Since then I haven't noticed any rattling at all, but I am wondering whether over the years this problematic tensioner and rattling (together with the one off big rattling) might have caused the engine to lose timing. The mechanic said he didn't notice any obvious signs of timing loss, but I have read that even if it slips slightly it could cause this P2191 come up.. Not sure how true that is.

Do you think that even though I haven't had the chain replaced what you mentioned above could still have happened? The mehanic wants first to exclude other causes for this code, but it seems we might be going for timing chain replacement (which I suppose includes making sure the timing is correct). Quote is around £600 I think and I might drop off the car tonight to the garage...

I just hope if we end that way that I won't waste £600 and will get it shorted.. But it looks like you have done that already and your fault code is still there and the fuel trims are high as well..😟
 

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Discussion Starter #17
just to add to the worry, i felt the same, my engine was idling fine and, once reset, would pull like a train, however, based on "advice", i replaced the timing chain and all it's associated bits. sadly, there is absolutely no change. it may be worth having the rocker cover off and re-checking the timing,

(on the dephaser, there are an arrow and a notch, these should line up with the mating surface of the engine/rocker cover when the cam-shafts are correctly positioned and the flywheel is correctly held. if they are not aligned, the oil going to it can be reduced. which in turn could cause the dephaser to not dephase!)

i think that that may be a better cost. also, if you are planning to do an oil change in the near future, it might be sensible to pop the sump off and clear out all the years of build up in there, then, with a little leverage, you could check to see if the oil pump is still complete and firmly fitted.

i have been running with an LTFT of over 29 for a week, this morning at work, i re-checked using Torquepro and found it had dropped to 27.1, despite my having done nothing.

today's story: the engine was still sluggish when starting and driving for about 5 miles, then, the turbo reappeared, so i thought it best to check the LTFT.

i am still convinced that i have an ECU issue, or at the very least, a Lambda / oxygen sensor issue as torquepro still doesn't recognise the upstream sensor and the downstream is reading "Weak" or lean. i have bought a known-good, used wide band sensor from The-Bay and will try it this weekend, it could be that i'm going in circles and something i have done may have caused a fault in the OEM sensor and the Non-oem sensors may simply not work with the french!! (it has been reported that aftermarket sensors can cause issues too!)

once this next bit has arrived and i've fitted it, i'll report back. i don't think for one minute that it will sort my particular problem out but it's £25 and worth a bash!!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
sorry, forgot to add......
reading the generic fault codes, i now have P2191, but the engine runs fine.
 

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I think I've noticed in the past the LTFT to fluctuate, but I think most of the time it was not going well down or up. I remember it some time back being around +22%, but lately it stays above +25%, close to +29%. I think it got worse over time and now it reached the point where the ECU cuts the power to the turbo.. I just don't know what is causing it. Some people say that if the LTFT is above 10% then it is a timing issue..

Not sure how you can determine if it is an ECU issue. The mechanic said will do an update on the ECU just in case, but I guess I will then need to drive it for another 100 miles or so to check if the LTFT will go up and if the code reappears again.. I am planning to do an oil change in the next month or so, but I am not sure how easy it is to pop the sump off that you mentioned? Is that something easily done? I would have to ask the mechanic to do it, so I am not if he will find it sensible and how much we would charge :p

One other thing that troubles me in general is that I think I had reduced power for years now, because since I cleared those codes last week the car was Flying! Even before I felt the complete turbo loss the last couple of months, the car was never as fast as it was the last few days. Perhaps the other parts that were replaced helped, but I think the P2191 was already there for years now and noone was plugging the car in when I was going for the regular servicing to check for any fault codes. Otherwise they would have said something! So I think it started gradually losing power and it reached a point where the turbo goes completely off. I might be mistaken, but the power difference was pretty obvious... I am so confused!! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #20
hi George.
when i bought my car, i experienced high and low power, i put it down to the vehicle having not been driven for a while. (how stupid am i!!). right now, i would suggest having the ECU re-flashed with the last available programme from a Peugeot dealership.

what, if any diag kit do you have?

does it show the lambdas working? (or even present!!?)

i am thinking that, if diagbox only sees the reading from the lambda sensor part, the other parts of it (the "pump" and heater element) may not be being recognized and, therefore, maybe not operating.

for example, if the heater element or the pump are faulty or not recognized, the sensor will operate at the incorrect temperature and / or not flow sufficient exhaust gas across the sensor, causing a lean / weak reading.

The system operates on a closed circuit "mostly" at idle and an internal map in the ECU kicks in when you give it some welly! so, if the ECU isn't sure what to do under load, it could be putting more fuel in to the system even though it doesn't actually need it.

so, i think, personally, (when i get paid), i'm going to ask for an "experiened" techy to plug their up-to-date diagbox in and to see if, regardless of the current programme level, they can refresh the ECU.

Note: sorry to anyone reading this, whilst i spent over 23 years in the motor trade, i always found it easier to avoid technical jargon with customers , so sorry if you think maybe i'm trying to teach anyone to suck eggs!

so,

George,

more food for thought??
 
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