[Sausages]

Hi all, 2005 Expert not starting when warm.

Brand new battery, starter has been removed, stripped, cleaned, regreased (new one on the way). Battery and starter motor terminals were cleaned at the same time.

Lift pump is activating, can hear it buzz every time with 2 clicks of the key.

In PP2000 can see cranking speed reaching 320 rpm, 290 bar fuel pressure. Temp sensors all seem to be correct. Once running all injectors are between -1 > +1.5 mm3^stroke (it changes idling, driving).

Once it’s started it runs absolutely fine without any problem, when cold it takes a few cranks to start but never fails to. When warm it judders and shudders like it wants to start but just can’t quite get going. As if there’s no fuel there but I can see in PP2000 there is.

Maybe an immobiliser issue? Anyone have any ideas?

 

[RedSector]

Maybe an immobiliser issue?

If that was the case, you could see it failure in PP, for that type of error.

When warm, it judders and shudders like it wants to start but just can’t quite get going.

Check the Ohm reading on the main harness from the engine to battery, wondering if an earthing issue might be the source.

 

[Gibbo]

Check the fuel temperature by reading live data in Planet. Fuel temp sensor may be mis-reading.

 

[Sausages]

If that was the case, you could see it failure in PP, for that type of error.


Check the Ohm reading on the main harness from the engine to battery, wondering if an earthing issue might be the source.

First off, just managed to jump start it. Engine had now cooled down and it still took 4 tries, which is the first time it’s failed to start from cold.

Then proceeded to drive 10 miles without a fault. No misfiring, no loss of power, just fine so I think I can rule out a fuelling/injector issue?

Out of interest where would I see the immobiliser being a problem in PP? I do not know my way around the software well.

Will ohm test the harness. Any particular point to check it from?

I failed to mention in the OP that there are no faults recorded either.

 

[Sausages]

Check the fuel temperature by reading live data in Planet. Fuel temp sensor may be mis-reading.

On a warm and running engine at idle when I checked it yesterday it was 32C. Temp outside at the time was 22C.

 

[RedSector]

Will ohm test the harness. Any particular point to check it from?

Between where the harness is earthed to the engine and negative on the battery. High ohm reading would be bad. It's a bit of a long shot being a diesel, however temp of engine can play a part in bad earth wiring.

Out of interest where would I see the immobiliser being a problem in PP?

They log as code, failure of immobiliser to unlock ecu (words to that effect), you would have read the fault if it existed.

 

[Sausages]

Between where the harness is earthed to the engine and negative on the battery. High ohm reading would be bad. It's a bit of a long shot being a diesel, however temp of engine can play a part in bad earth wiring.



They log as code, failure of immobiliser to unlock ecu (words to that effect), you would have read the fault if it existed.

I couldn’t find an earth point on the engine but the engine block itself > negative terminal is 0.000. As are all the other earth points I could find around the engine bay and the earth on the starter solenoid. I have taken them all off and cleaned them all up too just for good measure.

 

[RedSector]

Have a look at Gibbo suggested then, sounds unlikely to be earth but was worth a shot. They normally range at around 0.5 ohms to maybe 15 ohms for good ones, but guess it depends on your multimeter accuracy as well.

 

[Sausages]

Will check the fuel temp reading again tomorrow. Best done when hot or cold? What should I expect to see?

Started first time two more times today, not instantly though, took a few seconds and a few cranks for it to go. Really starting to suspect the starter motor more strongly even though it doesn’t seem particularly weak or slow, just a hunch. Will find out for sure when the replacement arrives, but just wanted to rule out whatever else I can in the mean time.

 

[RedSector]

Any chance you have air leak in the diesel lines (thinking between the tank and the fuel filter) ?

 

[Sausages]

Any chance you have air leak in the diesel lines (thinking between the tank and the fuel filter) ?

Possible but I don’t think so, it runs sweet, no loss of power, no smoke and returning perfect fuel consumption (40-45mpg mixed, mostly rural country roads).

 

[Sausages]

Little update.

New/eBay starter arrived, fitted, solenoid is gone on it! So just bit the bullet and gone to motor parts direct for a brand new one. Wouldn’t start there when hot and took several goes at bump starting with the help of the guys in the shop. Eventually got it going down a big hill in third. Trying to start on the key it didn’t even rumble and did sound fuel starved, although listened for the pump every time and it was definitely whirring.

Tested with PP2000 again, all air, fuel, coolant temp sensors are giving expected readings. Cam/crank syncing. Am reaching over 300bar fuel pressure even when it refuses to start and over 300 rpm cranking speed. With the help of someone else to watch the screen whilst driving they noted injector 3 was sometimes showing a +2mm3^stroke correction but does come back down, but they all fluctuate quite a fair bit.

Now wondering if it’s worth getting a leak off test kit and doing that before committing to fitting this new starter motor.

 

[Sausages]

Also. I just got a like for like 1.4kw starter. Would it be worthwhile returning and getting the 1.7k for an extra £10 instead?

Should it matter?

 

[Ian M Davis]

Also. I just got a like for like 1.4kw starter. Would it be worthwhile returning and getting the 1.7k for an extra £10 instead?

Should it matter?

If the previous starter motor has lasted many years I would stick with like for like. There is no harm in a more powerful starter motor but you run a slight risk it won't fit.

A leak off test is probably worth while but it sounds like you need to sort the starting motor first. Just to cover all bases have you checked the air intake side of things with PP2000?

I think you had concerns about the immobiliser. The immobiliser will cut off the injectors and from you description I doubt that is happening. However, on most Peugeots you can check the immobiliser state with PP2000 under Test by ECU- BSI- Parameters measurements- Immobiliser. The main thing to look for is if the engine ECU is locked or unlocked.

 

[Sausages]

If the previous starter motor has lasted many years I would stick with like for like. There is no harm in a more powerful starter motor but you run a slight risk it won't fit.

A leak off test is probably worth while but it sounds like you need to sort the starting motor first. Just to cover all bases have you checked the air intake side of things with PP2000?

I think you had concerns about the immobiliser. The immobiliser will cut off the injectors and from you description I doubt that is happening. However, on most Peugeots you can check the immobiliser state with PP2000 under Test by ECU- BSI- Parameters measurements- Immobiliser. The main thing to look for is if the engine ECU is locked or unlocked.

Thanks, I have not checked the air intake stuff in PP2000. I have not seen any mention of them when diagnosing starting issue, although I have a few screenshots of the parameter pages at idle and a short video of the screen with the injector corrections when it’s refusing to start, so could already have the data if you know what I need to be seeing?

The ebay starter was a 10 tooth 1.7kw, and it did fit ok because I whipped it on to see, the solenoid is dead on it though, isolated and confirmed. Unfortunately the casting is different and the solenoid on the current starter will not fit on the ebay starter’s casting. Not only that but all replacement solenoids I have managed to find look like they are for fitting the original starter so it is little more than a paperweight and can’t reasonably be salvaged.

 

[Sausages]

These three images are:

Starting from cold
This is a screen grab from a video of the frame before it fires
and the rpm shoots up to 800+


Idling when warm


Attempting to start when hot
This is another screen grab of the frame where cranking speed reaches its highest when failing to start. Apologies for the sideways picture.

 

[Ian M Davis]

I suspect the air-intake side is probably okay but as you have PP2000 hooked up it worth a quick check. All I had in mind was to check the actual air flow agained the target value. PP2000 should show you both.

I had a look at the starter motors for your engine in Sevicebox and there a large range of starter motors. Most cases i have seen where people repair their starter motors they end up buying a new or reconditioned unit.

 

[Ian M Davis]

These three images are:

Starting from cold
This is a screen grab from a video of the frame before it fires
and the rpm shoots up to 800+


Idling when warm


Attempting to start when hot
This is another screen grab of the frame where cranking speed reaches its highest when failing to start. Apologies for the sideways picture.
View attachment 99572

I just spotted something very significant on one of the three screens: The camshaft and crankshaft are out of synch.

 

[Sausages]

I just spotted something very significant on one of the three screens: The camshaft and crankshaft are out of synch.

Hmm well spotted you are correct although it is yes in the frame before that. It does change from no>yes>no when cranking and failing but when watching it in person it happens so fast I hadn’t noticed if it was changing to no before failing to start or not. Also there is quite a bit of lag between what’s actually happening in the engine to what’s displayed on the screen.

Think this needs more investigation.

 

[Ian M Davis]

Hmm well spotted you are correct although it is yes in the frame before that. It does change from no>yes>no when cranking and failing but when watching it in person it happens so fast I hadn’t noticed if it was changing to no before failing to start or not. Also there is quite a bit of lag between what’s actually happening in the engine to what’s displayed on the screen.

Think this needs more investigation.

It is rather odd. Given that there is an engine speed then the lack of synch is more likely (but not necessarily) the camshaft sensor. My guess is the crankshaft sensor is a 2 pin type and the camshaft sensor is a 3 pin Hall effect type. The two pin crankshaft sensors are just a coil and a magnet. The Hall effect type have some electronics so may be affected by heat. In some cars the engine will keep running if the camshaft sensor fails but on at least some Experts diesels if it fails the engine will not start.

One other thing there is a know issue with Peugeot diesels where the wires to crankshaft sensor rub on the auxiliary belt pulley so it would worth having a look down there just incase the wires are making an intermittent contact.