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Discussion Starter #1
To adjust the rear brake shoes, the Haynes manual tells you to lift the back wheels off the ground, ie to put the car on stands. Then pump the brake a few times and raise the handbrake lever a few times to adjust the shoes.

The bit I do not understand is, why do the back wheels have to be off the ground.

Couldn't you adjust the shoes without lifting the back wheels up.
 

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The shoes should self adjust automatically in normal use.
Trouble is often they don't, the mechanism seizes up. Heat and dust are a poor environment for a fine adjusting mechanism.
If your shoes aren't adjusting you should take the drums off and have a look.
But with a pencil torch and a thin blade screwdriver you can access the adjusting wheel through a wheel bolt hole and adjust from there. Be careful you don't overdo this, as they are a pig to back off again.
Quite frankly the Haynes advice makes little sense to me.

Roger.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The shoes should self adjust automatically in normal use.
Trouble is often they don't, the mechanism seizes up. Heat and dust are a poor environment for a fine adjusting mechanism.
If your shoes aren't adjusting you should take the drums off and have a look.
But with a pencil torch and a thin blade screwdriver you can access the adjusting wheel through a wheel bolt hole and adjust from there. Be careful you don't overdo this, as they are a pig to back off again.
Quite frankly the Haynes advice makes little sense to me.

Roger.
Thanks Roger, the problem with the 106 brakes is they don't have a wheel. They have a ratchet mechanism which is supposed to self adjust and can be levered with a screwdriver to back the shoes off for removal.

I don't think you can lever the ratchet to open the shoes out, there is nothing in the Haynes manual about it, still it's worth a try I suppose.

I have just replaced the shoes, cylinders and drums so it is all new, they barley passed the MOT test and the bloke told me, the shoes need snugging up a bit to the drums.

The funny thing is, he said the handbrake works fine. And if the handbrake is working fine, how much room does that leave me for further adjustment of the shoes, if they can be adjusted.
 

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Thanks Roger, the problem with the 106 brakes is they don't have a wheel. They have a ratchet mechanism which is supposed to self adjust and can be levered with a screwdriver to back the shoes off for removal.

I don't think you can lever the ratchet to open the shoes out, there is nothing in the Haynes manual about it, still it's worth a try I suppose.

I have just replaced the shoes, cylinders and drums so it is all new, they barley passed the MOT test and the bloke told me, the shoes need snugging up a bit to the drums.

The funny thing is, he said the handbrake works fine. And if the handbrake is working fine, how much room does that leave me for further adjustment of the shoes, if they can be adjusted.
Could it be that they just need some miles to bed in?
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/brakebedding.html

Maybe they have to be of the ground, so you can turn the wheel with the handbrake off, to see there is some resistance felt when turning the drum by hand..
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Could it be that they just need some miles to bed in?
brakebedding

Maybe they have to be of the ground, so you can turn the wheel with the handbrake off, to see there is some resistance felt when turning the drum by hand..
It could be that as well Liam, I think the bedding in process takes about 200 miles of driving, I have done around 150 miles since doing the brakes.

I thought that as well, wheels must be off the ground to check them for resistance. Mine won't adjust any further using the Haynes manual method of adjustment.

I have come up with this idea to adjust them without taking the drum off, I have tested this using a screwdriver and it works. Here you need to get the blade of a flat head screwdriver into the gap where the end of the bar is, then twist it to the right. Listne for the tell tale click and do the same to the other side.


In the 2nd pic there is another area where you can stick a screwdriver through the bolt hole in the drum and again, force it to the right.


In the 3rd pic, you can see the edge of the ratchet mechanism adjuster, knock that down if you go too far to reset the brakes and start again. Notice it is always on the leading shoe where the ratchet is, that you need to make the adjustment.
 

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It could be that as well Liam, I think the bedding in process takes about 200 miles of driving, I have done around 150 miles since doing the brakes.

I thought that as well, wheels must be off the ground to check them for resistance. Mine won't adjust any further using the Haynes manual method of adjustment.

I have come up with this idea to adjust them without taking the drum off, I have tested this using a screwdriver and it works. Here you need to get the blade of a flat head screwdriver into the gap where the end of the bar is, then twist it to the right. Listne for the tell tale click and do the same to the other side.


In the 2nd pic there is another area where you can stick a screwdriver through the bolt hole in the drum and again, force it to the right.


In the 3rd pic, you can see the edge of the ratchet mechanism adjuster, knock that down if you go too far to reset the brakes and start again. Notice it is always on the leading shoe where the ratchet is, that you need to make the adjustment.
well discovered. I shall make a mental note of that!
Good to know.
tbh, I think you have adjusted the hand brake perfectly...
are you starting to think it's the wheel cylinder and back that isn't pushing them out enough?
I don't know if the mot handbrake test pressure is less than the back brake piston push pressure ? so it can pass on one and not the other?
also, again, I don't know, but is it worth roughing up the mating surfaces with sandpaper, to speed up the bedding in process..
are you going to "live and let lie" since you have the mot test
or, are you going to have further brake tests for your own interest?
I wold guess that with some mileage, and 20 hard pushes of the brakes, will settle things in fine ? the vibration of movement may reseat everything as it should. ps did you grease the back contact surfaces, ...again, I'm not sure how much difference that would make.
All the best
Liam
pps cool yellow pointy thing :)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
well discovered. I shall make a mental note of that!
Good to know.
tbh, I think you have adjusted the hand brake perfectly...
are you starting to think it's the wheel cylinder and back that isn't pushing them out enough?
I don't know if the mot handbrake test pressure is less than the back brake piston push pressure ? so it can pass on one and not the other?
also, again, I don't know, but is it worth roughing up the mating surfaces with sandpaper, to speed up the bedding in process..
are you going to "live and let lie" since you have the mot test
or, are you going to have further brake tests for your own interest?
I wold guess that with some mileage, and 20 hard pushes of the brakes, will settle things in fine ? the vibration of movement may reseat everything as it should. ps did you grease the back contact surfaces, ...again, I'm not sure how much difference that would make.
All the best
Liam
pps cool yellow pointy thing :)
I didn't make any adjustment to the handbrake cable, couldn't get at it anyway. I reasoned the only time it might need adjusting is if the cable has stretched and you have virtually no handbrake after fitting the shoes. Then you have no option but to adjust the cable.

The handbrake pressure was greater surprisingly enough. The test results are as follows...Front Axel brake forces (kgf) Lh 197 Rh 194. Rear Axel Lh 111 Rh 106. Parking Brake Lh 117 Rh 108.
There is a brake difference of 2% on the front and 5% on the back, the limit is 30% so as long as you are under 30%, it's all good. There is a test for Bind included 12 and 9 front, then 10 and 7 rear. I have no idea what that means. Then there is the Brake efficiency % measure. Service 69 >=limit 50. Parking 26 Limit >=16 They passed anyway.:D

The new cylinders that came with the kit looked a few mil smaller that the ones I took out, so yes I was thinking that could be one reason why the shoes won't fully adjust automatically. Then again, if the cyls were too small, the pistons would pop out, so it can't be that.

I don't know about roughing up shoes, I have never seen it done. IMO making the shoe material fluffy or rough can't help. You need a solid surface to make good contact, that is what brake material is designed to do. If the shoes were meant to be rough, that is how they would make them to begin with.

Yes, I greased the parts on the back plate where the shoes come into contact with it, that's a must do every time I think, you don't want metal on metal grinding.

No, even though I have my MOT I won't let it lie. I like things to work properly. I can tell they need adjusting anyway because the hubs spin too freely, they should bind a little if they are set correctly. I could give them a bit more time I suppose to see if they settle. Then try the Haynes with the wheels off the ground. At least it is not urgent now, I have plenty of time to sort them out.:)
 

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I didn't make any adjustment to the handbrake cable, couldn't get at it anyway. I reasoned the only time it might need adjusting is if the cable has stretched and you have virtually no handbrake after fitting the shoes. Then you have no option but to adjust the cable.

The handbrake pressure was greater surprisingly enough. The test results are as follows...Front Axel brake forces (kgf) Lh 197 Rh 194. Rear Axel Lh 111 Rh 106. Parking Brake Lh 117 Rh 108.
There is a brake difference of 2% on the front and 5% on the back, the limit is 30% so as long as you are under 30%, it's all good. There is a test for Bind included 12 and 9 front, then 10 and 7 rear. I have no idea what that means. Then there is the Brake efficiency % measure. Service 69 >=limit 50. Parking 26 Limit >=16 They passed anyway.:D

The new cylinders that came with the kit looked a few mil smaller that the ones I took out, so yes I was thinking that could be one reason why the shoes won't fully adjust automatically. Then again, if the cyls were too small, the pistons would pop out, so it can't be that.

I don't know about roughing up shoes, I have never seen it done. IMO making the shoe material fluffy or rough can't help. You need a solid surface to make good contact, that is what brake material is designed to do. If the shoes were meant to be rough, that is how they would make them to begin with.

Yes, I greased the parts on the back plate where the shoes come into contact with it, that's a must do every time I think, you don't want metal on metal grinding.

No, even though I have my MOT I won't let it lie. I like things to work properly. I can tell they need adjusting anyway because the hubs spin too freely, they should bind a little if they are set correctly. I could give them a bit more time I suppose to see if they settle. Then try the Haynes with the wheels off the ground. At least it is not urgent now, I have plenty of time to sort them out.:)
If the handbrake cable has stretched, replace it. It is going to fail completely soon.

Quite often the parking brake will give a higher reading than the foot brake, most cars have a limiting valve in the hydraulic circuit to prevent the rear wheels locking under heavy braking. Incidentally, it could be that with the rear suspension hanging the foot brake might not work at all on the rear wheels. I remember this being the case on older Renault cars.

The brakes shouldn't drag, they should be adjusted until they do, then backed off in tiny amounts until they don't.

Roger.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
If the handbrake cable has stretched, replace it. It is going to fail completely soon.

Quite often the parking brake will give a higher reading than the foot brake, most cars have a limiting valve in the hydraulic circuit to prevent the rear wheels locking under heavy braking. Incidentally, it could be that with the rear suspension hanging the foot brake might not work at all on the rear wheels. I remember this being the case on older Renault cars.

The brakes shouldn't drag, they should be adjusted until they do, then backed off in tiny amounts until they don't.

Roger.

Thanks Roger, that's good advice re the cable. Now that I think about it, if the cable had stretched, I suppose it should be replaced, but mine was OK in that respect.

Going by some of the videos I have seen, if the advice is correct, there should be slight resistance to indicate that the shoes are barely touching, or very close to the drum.

 

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Discussion Starter #10
Peugeot 106

I had the wheels off today to see what was going on with the brake shoes needing some adjustment.

What I discovered was, the passenger side shoes had adjusted correctly, the drivers side for some reason had not fully adjusted. I can't explain it, both sides are exactly the same.

While the rear wheels were off, I bled the brakes again to make sure there was no air left in the system, and there was, 4 large bubbles came out in the tube, now the brake pedal is really firm. It just goes to show, you can't even trust a pressure bleed kit.

Anyway after a bit of poking around with a screwdriver, I managed to get the shoes to adjust so they match the passenger side. I may take the drivers side apart again to see why the shoes wouldn't adjust.

I now have brakes that appear to be working 100% for the moment.
 

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I had the wheels off today to see what was going on with the brake shoes needing some adjustment.

What I discovered was, the passenger side shoes had adjusted correctly, the drivers side for some reason had not fully adjusted. I can't explain it, both sides are exactly the same.

While the rear wheels were off, I bled the brakes again to make sure there was no air left in the system, and there was, 4 large bubbles came out in the tube, now the brake pedal is really firm. It just goes to show, you can't even trust a pressure bleed kit.

Anyway after a bit of poking around with a screwdriver, I managed to get the shoes to adjust so they match the passenger side. I may take the drivers side apart again to see why the shoes wouldn't adjust.

I now have brakes that appear to be working 100% for the moment.
Great job John !

My friend Jenny will be looking at this thread as her car's failed the mot on imbalance at the back. *fingers crossed for her for tomorrow*

Cheers
Liam
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Great job John !

My friend Jenny will be looking at this thread as her car's failed the mot on imbalance at the back. *fingers crossed for her for tomorrow*

Cheers
Liam
Thanks Liam, I will let you know what I find when I pull it apart. I have a spare set of new shoes that came with the drums. I think there is a problem with the ratchet, even though it is new, it isn't working properly.

I noticed on the shoes I fitted that the ratchet mechanism was designed for one side only, the other side was flipped over to work on the drivers side.
 

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I had the wheels off today to see what was going on with the brake shoes needing some adjustment.

What I discovered was, the passenger side shoes had adjusted correctly, the drivers side for some reason had not fully adjusted. I can't explain it, both sides are exactly the same.

While the rear wheels were off, I bled the brakes again to make sure there was no air left in the system, and there was, 4 large bubbles came out in the tube, now the brake pedal is really firm. It just goes to show, you can't even trust a pressure bleed kit.

Anyway after a bit of poking around with a screwdriver, I managed to get the shoes to adjust so they match the passenger side. I may take the drivers side apart again to see why the shoes wouldn't adjust.

I now have brakes that appear to be working 100% for the moment.
Great job John !

My friend Jenny will be looking at this thread as her car's failed the mot on imbalance at the back. *fingers crossed for her for tomorrow*

Cheers
Liam
Thanks Liam! 🙂 i have read through it all but my Dad has tried all this. He messaged me last night and said he might know what it is so ill see what he says and let you know 🙂 thanks again everyone.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Right, I had a chat with a real mechanic today, and told him I thought my brakes were not quiet right, there is still a bit of travel on the brake pedal.

Obviously I did not disclose that I was the fool who fitted the shoes in the first place. :eek:

He tells me they should have been adjusted when they were fitted, I said I was told they were self adjusting, and they would settle after a couple of weeks. (Total lie of course) He said, even so, they must be adjusted during fitting, via the handbrake. I thanked him and left the garage.

So it appears the handbrake must be used to get the correct clearance before putting the drum back on.

One side has adjusted OK so I will try this on the side that needs snugging up.:thumb:
 

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Right, I had a chat with a real mechanic today, and told him I thought my brakes were not quiet right, there is still a bit of travel on the brake pedal.

Obviously I did not disclose that I was the fool who fitted the shoes in the first place. :eek:

He tells me they should have been adjusted when they were fitted, I said I was told they were self adjusting, and they would settle after a couple of weeks. (Total lie of course) He said, even so, they must be adjusted during fitting, via the handbrake. I thanked him and left the garage.

So it appears the handbrake must be used to get the correct clearance before putting the drum back on.

One side has adjusted OK so I will try this on the side that needs snugging up.:thumb:
Thanks for reporting back , John.
I think this will help a lot who come looking here with a similar problem.
I can totally understand your reasoning, before, about the self adjusting..adjusting themselves...
but maybe there is some voodoo going on that means they have to be initially adjusted with the handbrake.
Cheers
Liam
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Thanks for reporting back , John.
I think this will help a lot who come looking here with a similar problem.
I can totally understand your reasoning, before, about the self adjusting..adjusting themselves...
but maybe there is some voodoo going on that means they have to be initially adjusted with the handbrake.
Cheers
Liam
Thanks Liam, glad to help. There is nothing about fitting Bendix brake shoes on the web, it's like it is a closely guarded secret. The bloody Haynes manual does not explain it properly either. You naturally assume as the brakes are self adjusting, all you have to do is fit them.

My neighbour told me the other day that he had the same problem with a Citroen, due to the sodding ratchet adjusters, it defeated him in the end so had to take it to a garage.
 

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Thanks for reporting back , John.
I think this will help a lot who come looking here with a similar problem.
I can totally understand your reasoning, before, about the self adjusting..adjusting themselves...
but maybe there is some voodoo going on that means they have to be initially adjusted with the handbrake.
Cheers
Liam
Hi Liam,

I was wondering if you solved the riddle of the self adjusting drum brakes yet?

I couldn't log in using my original account, username JohnJ and couldn't reset the password as admin did not send the email. Probably left it too long so I had to create a this one.

I figured it out in the end, it is so easy, you would kick yourself. :D

John.
 
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