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Old 06-05-13, 02:13 PM   #1
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Default 2004 2.0 HDI 807 non-cranking when warm

Hi All
I have an odd starting issue I cannot figure out:
Cold start = she is cranking happily and starting within a couple of seconds
Lukewarm = as above
Fully warmed up =
- when re-starting immediately (within a minute or so) = no cranking on first attempt, easy crank & start on second (always!).
- when she has been sitting for some minutes = no cranking at all (always!).

The no crank condition is only a 'click' which I first addressed to the solenoid working but with insufficient juice on the battery to crank the engine. New battery in = same problem (also, I am sure I would have had a cold starting issue if it were the battery)
Upon further inspection (meaning help from the wife I have found that the 'click' is from the top right side (facing forward) in the engine bay, and that leads me to think it is the relay(s) I am hearing.

I have PP but nothing shows up there...
I have tried to look for bad cables & connections but have found nothing...

Any & all tips from the collective much appreciated,
Karl
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Old 07-05-13, 09:13 AM   #2
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So while I am waiting & hoping that someone else have had similar issues, I am pondering about the starting circuit:
I am used to MC's and on my old Harley it is a simple as it can get: The starter motor is directly powered from positive battery terminal (via the solenoid). The solenoid is triggered by power from the same source, via a fuse and a starter relay - activated by the start button (=key in most cars).
Assuming that it is equally simple in my car, I can only see that it is either a wiring issue or an issue with the starter itself.
Can someone confirm (or not) that the starter current draw is higher when the starter is warm?
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Old 07-05-13, 10:29 AM   #3
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Current draw will be more when cold as the turning effort is more with cold engine, cold oil etc.

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Old 07-05-13, 12:23 PM   #4
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Yep. I get a flicker of my ABS lamp when I start up when cold. But when warm it doesn't appear, and the car starts much quicker, with less glow plug time.
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Old 07-05-13, 09:10 PM   #5
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Thanks for the input & I do agree that a cold engine is harder to turn. Still, in my case this is not very relevant, as the starter does not engage at all. I was more after the starting current draw of a hot el motor.
Anyone ever heard of some sort of partial hot seizure of a starter motor?
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Old 07-05-13, 10:29 PM   #6
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Starters do fail more on hot starts with these sometimes the trigger wire to the solenoid causes this not enough current when hot to fully engage the solenoid what we do is wire a relay in the trigger circuit to feed power directly to the starter this cures it most of the time.

Ask an auto electrician to fit a relay if that does not help your starter may be getting old.

If you have an oil leak then it will leak into the starter eventually causing problems.
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Old 08-05-13, 01:51 AM   #7
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Default Exactly what I had going on...

This is how my 307 1.6l diesel started playing up...
Eventually as I was figuring out what was going on it stopped starting all together...new starter motor fixed it. It seems like the "heatsoak" effect when stopped for a while raises the resistance "somewhere to the point where there is too much. That's my thinking but I stand to be corrected.
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Old 08-05-13, 10:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reliable406 View Post
Starters do fail more on hot starts with these sometimes the trigger wire to the solenoid causes this not enough current when hot to fully engage the solenoid what we do is wire a relay in the trigger circuit to feed power directly to the starter this cures it most of the time.

Ask an auto electrician to fit a relay if that does not help your starter may be getting old.

If you have an oil leak then it will leak into the starter eventually causing problems.
Thanks for the input - now looking at a wiring diagram (I only have a fairly poor pdf scan), to my surprise I do not see a starting relay...
I will buy a standard 30A relay on the way home and see if I manage to wire it in tonight. Except possible access problems, this should be simple enough; a fused tap at the alternator/starter connection should do...

As for the oil leak, this is another good point; with the oil dipstick being just above the starter, some drops have landed on the starter housing, hmmm...
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Old 08-05-13, 10:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david.elliot View Post
This is how my 307 1.6l diesel started playing up...
Eventually as I was figuring out what was going on it stopped starting all together...new starter motor fixed it. It seems like the "heatsoak" effect when stopped for a while raises the resistance "somewhere to the point where there is too much. That's my thinking but I stand to be corrected.
I think you might be onto something - I will first try wiring in a starter relay, and see if that works...
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Old 04-06-13, 12:49 PM   #10
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Update:
I wired in a starting relay and was very positive at first couple of starts as all seemed well. However, it was very soon back to normal (which was a deteriorating condition). I ended up replacing the starter, and now it is working with no issues whether cold, lukewarm or hot!
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