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Old 20-05-19, 06:43 AM   #1
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Default 207CC 1.6thp intermittant turbo fault.

Hi all, newbie here so please accept my apologies for such a loooong post.
Can anyone help me?
I have a 2008 1.6thp (150) 207cc, it has just under 45k miles on the clock.
I am having intermittent turbo failure issues.
The car starts fine and idles acceptably, occasionally burbling like a slight miss-fire.

It drives well enough and has never stalled on me.
When driving in local traffic at sub-30 mph, I get the feeling like someone has pulled the handbrake on, this is an indication to me that the turbo is no longer adding its extra boost, this is confirmed by putting my accelerator foot down, hard and only achieving slow acceleration.

So far, I have:
Removed the inlet manifold, re-sealed it.
Removed the turbo vacuum solenoid, dismantled it, cleaned it, checked its operation and put it back in a slightly more accessible position, (at least 3 times now!!)
Checked the operation of its sister solenoid, under the inlet manifold, which vents the engine, the one-way valve operates correctly and I can feel it clicking in operation (so I’m assuming it works well)
Replaced the MAP and MAF sensors,
Replaced the turbo oil return pipe (that difficult one that disappears behind the turbo to the engine)
I have checked the engine PCV (in the top of the valve cover) again, it works correctly.
Checked the operation of the Vacuum pump, all ok there, plenty of vacuum.
Checked the operation / movement of the wastegate actuator both by sucking on a pipe attached to it and removing the pipe from the vacuum pipe from the actuator, all seems ok. (also checked operation during the oil feed pipe replacement)
Replaced the turbo diverter valve, twice, then added the “extra” pressure spring and seal mechanism so that it requires more pressure to open without the solenoid being actuated.
I have sprayed flammable liquids all around the inlet pipes / manifold / vacuum pipes with no change in engine attitude.
The cam-chain was replaced by an independent garage prior to my purchase, no reasoning given for this but it was at around 29k miles, while the inlet manifold was off I could see the valves were filthy so that is possibly the next job for which I need to find a garage local to Portsmouth who can do it,
Currently, (according to “torque pro” app) my LTFT is at about 28 (yes, massively high) but that generally indicates fuel trim in relation to excess air, so, I’m thinking that somewhere, air is getting in and causing this as at 28, the engine should be throwing up EML’s and Limping home, but, I have no fault codes stored or pending!!
So, my question….. have I missed anything “obvious?”
Hoping someone can give me something else to consider.
thanks to all in advance.
paul.
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Old 20-05-19, 12:34 PM   #2
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was the LTFT showing +28 or -28?

also is the car standard or mapped?

sounds like classic timing related issue, some of the cars throw up fault codes as soon as the LTFT gets above 10 but some don't and have seen cars in the high 20's before that didn't have anything but their timing was well out.

the mileage on the car doesn't matter for the timing as if its not been done properly or looked after, the timing will go anytime. Even seen a car go 50miles after it had its timing done at a dealership!
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Old 20-05-19, 01:10 PM   #3
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hi there ADS77

Thanks for the reply,

ltft is at +28,
when the turbo is operating, the engine idles fine and accelerates as I would expect.
the short term fuel trim is acceptable as it cancels out quite a bit of the long term, meaning (I believe) that the long term trim is effectively reduced. (I could be wrong)
during this whole process, the LTFT has remained particularly high so I don't doubt the timing being out, I just can't get my head around the on / off randomness of the turbo!
I can guarantee that i'll go home this evening and it will be on / off / on / off at random points. if the timing effects the turbo operation (possibly via the ECU seeing the LTFT is sky-high) wouldn't I be without turbo all the time? I was considering buying the timing kit and re-doing it myself but have heard that some of those kits are just rubbish. my only other thought is the throttle body (just about the only bit I haven't removed or replaced), maybe the servo in there is slaving / failing but I've not found anyone else on here having found that to be at fault (although there was 1 chap on the Ds3 site!)
thanks again for yout thoughts, i'll consider that option presently. p.

Last edited by paul-e; 20-05-19 at 01:12 PM. Reason: forgot to quote members name.
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Old 20-05-19, 01:28 PM   #4
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yeh that basically means your using 28% more fuel than u should be.

the turbo will come in and out as the ecu sees the afr change and then adjusts the fuel and air intake to hit the afr target, so hence u will see boost and no boost intermittently.

yeh your spot on about those kits u can buy, some people will say yeh they are fine and their car is fine, but we use the proper Peugeot one (£600) and when compared to the others u can buy there is only 1 that will have the timing set up properly!

its one of these things that dealers will take good money for, local family garages will say yeh they can do it, but wont have the tools and will happily take your money.

as there was a fair number of local owners in our area up here, and most are heavily modified, we took decision to spend some money on the tools and other parts needed, to help out those we know, from both local and across the UK who have travelled to us for work, and with dealership labour costs at 100 quid or more plus vat, we thought easier to do it ourselves aided by the assistance of Peugeot master techs we know and tuners for other parts on the cars.

its normally around 2 hours for a dealer to check the timing on these engines, lot of strip down and build back up unfortunately.
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Old 20-05-19, 02:08 PM   #5
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hi again.
despite the tools being less than perfect for the job, I think I may still buy one and see if I can "improve" on the +28 LTFT.
if, by using the cheap kit I can get it down to below 10% it would be a great improvement.
and, what you say about the AFR / ECU / Turbo operation seems to run true, but would that really affect it when not under any load? i.e, driving on a flat road at 30mph, 1500 rpm and not accelerating? seems a bit strange to me but i'm more used to my old Isuzu powered lotus Elan, which did things "properly"

wtf were Peugeot thinking when they created this backwards arrangement? Wastegate should be opened when decelerating using engine vacuum, not some added bolt-on pump, solenoid valves and a bunch of pipes that will fatigue over time!! and did they never hear of a woodruff key?

have you ever heard of / had a faulty throttle body? not that I really need to spend next months mortgage payments on one, "just in case" !

thanks for your input, you have helped, now I know I have to take a match to it and start again!!

cheers.

p.
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Old 20-05-19, 02:20 PM   #6
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faulty throttle bodies tend to drop the car to 3 cylinders, u would know if had one trust me lol sounds like a track car engine!

people are shocked that this engine has won award after award since it came out too!

what would highly suggest is to get proper timing parts, not the crap that they offer on ebay as their isn't anything as a timing kit which they offer, its a selection of timing parts that are fitted depending on the diagnosis of the investigation, full timing parts retail this now at £370 but cheaper with my trade discount lol

would also need other tools that normally people don't have in their tool boxes in their home garage which also adds to the cost.
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Old 20-05-19, 02:36 PM   #7
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hiya.
ok, I get your point, it's about £250 just to get the timing checked, plus more time to do the job, plus parts, (at dealer retail!) so, i'd be better off buying the proper / genuine kit.
I have amassed a ton of random tools over time, spent most of my life as a service advisor in / around the trade, even spent a short time with Peugeot but, these engines were quite new then!!

sadly, most dealer tech's are a little reluctant to pass on their hard earned knowledge to the bods on the front desk, even though I have put a couple of master-techs to shame in the past.

as for the awards these engines have won, they must be the "NAFF" awards!

I think i'm going to start saving up for this job, can't sell this "PoS" until it's working properly.
(annoyingly, I really like the car, when it works!)

cheers again.
p.
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Old 20-05-19, 08:45 PM   #8
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you will be lucky to get the tool from Peugeot, they very hesitant to sell their tools, and normally a long lead time to get them to you from france.

there will be places that do the timing jobs but they are a bit of a drive even for you down there,

do u have a torque screwdriver or torque wrench that can go to 0.6daNm ? that's a must have also.
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Old 21-05-19, 06:15 AM   #9
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hiya.
I do have a torque wrench but i'm not sure of it's capacity, I will have to look later.
I think I would be able to do the job (with the right torque wrench) but I can only give "myself" a guarantee, if I have a garage carry out the work then they have to offer some form of parts and labour guarantee.
I don't know if the parts manager at the local Peugeot dealer where I worked for under a year is still there, or if he even liked me! (parts and service rarely get along like a well oiled clock!) so I wont approach them to see if they will sell me the OEM kit. I have e-mailed a local Peugeot "specialist" to see if they are interested in the job.
incidentally, as predicted, on the journey home last night, full turbo operation and on reading the LTFT this morning when reaching work, the numbers had reduced from over 28 to 25.6! which confuses the hell out of me, surely if the timing is out, it's out, so why would the numbers come down? I am going to buy a cam sensor on payday as they are quite cheap, just to rule out the possibility of that being faulty.
thank you so much for your time with this / me, it really is appreciated. I will return at some point in the near future to update this post.
thanks again. p.
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Old 03-06-19, 02:22 PM   #10
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Default update on last post.

so, in an effort to rule out everything before going down the timing route, i have removed the vanos unit (cam timing solenoid thingy) cleaned out the 11 years of muck build-up in and on it (surprisingly not that much!) and re-installed it, drove to the local shops, came home, checked for faults...........
pending P0010 fault (power to vanos) so, as i had a bit of a journey, i thought, F*** it, i'll go with the possible fault, see if it clears and then check once i get home. so, for a 130 mile motorway round-trip, i had the EML on, at half way through the journey i checked the faults, P0010 no longer "pending" now an actual fault. strangely, this did not affect the power from the engine, i still had (what i feel) to be input from the turbo. good acceleration from standstill, good acceleration from 70 to ("not" 70!) and when at idle, it was nearly rattle / rumble free! crazy. i did check the LTFT but as there was a power fault to the vanos, it wasn't going to show an accurate reading.
i cleared the fault code and drove the 65 miles home.
once home and the engine cool enough to work on, i laboriously removed all those air-intake pipes that just get in the way, removed the pcv pipe and found a dangly loom terminal that i'd obviously not put back on properly (or AT ALL.)

i cleared the P0010 fault code, went and got some fuel and once home i re-checked faults, none. i calculated my fuel consumption based on the Vanos not being connected and, with 130 miles of mostly motorway and about 40 miles of local driving, my 1.6thp was doing just above 38.5mpg (which i think is good considering it's age, the guaranteed crap build-up in the intake valves and valve timing not being adjusted for 130 of those miles!)

i have since driven about 40 miles in town traffic and, currently my LTFT is a whole ZERO! (which i don't believe for one minute will stay that way). i do believe the timing is either out by a smidgen (for those reading in European, its about a thickness of an escargot trail) or the 2 other sensors (crank and camshaft) are weakening and maybe not giving a correct input to the ecu. again, in an effort to do all i can before asking a mechanic to carry out the timing, i shall replace them as a matter of course, sometime after next payday!! it really can't hurt can it?
i just hope that i'm not suffering from high power fuel pump issues as i understand that, whilst it's an easy job, it aint cheap, so, i shall hold that possibility in reserve.
thank you all for reading this, please feel free to comment / put your 2 pennies worth in, all suggestions will be considered.
p.
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