Clutch went, Engine cut out -now won't start at all

[danielr]

Hello,
I hope that the title describes what's happened pretty well.

Basically, for the past few days the clutch has felt like it's on it's way out, it's felt like I've had to push it further to the floor, (if that makes sense) to get it to engage properly.

Today it gave up comepletely, however I wasn't in a particularly good place to stop, so I kept driving for a little while. (Baiscally just matching engine revs to speed and knocking it into gear, and having to stall to a stop then put it in gear and re-start. (probably drove for about 500 yards like this stopping/restarting only once).

Anyway, basically what happened next was that the car cut out whilst driving (it was running really rought for a few seconds before if cut out). now it won't start again.

the complete symptoms are:
clutch is very easy (too easy to press to the floor.) (pumping the pedal does not make it firmer.)

fulid in the reseviour is full, (to max line), there's no fluid on the road or drive after it stopped (that I could see.)

car will turn over, and doesn't sound like there is a problem, (turns over freely)

when put into gear the starter motor can move the car (on flat/level ground).
(but the car won't start) (so seems unlikely to be a gearbox problem.)

even in neutral the car won't start.



It seems likely that either the master or slave cylinder has gone. that's simple enough.


it's the not starting that's bugging me.

Is there some sort of safety thing on the car? clutch failure means that the engine will cut out and not start again. -seems this could be possible since the hydraulic resevouir is shared between the brakes and the clutch.


For the past few weeks the ABS fault warning light (and message on the dash) has been coming up, but turning itself off again the next time the car is started, (unsure if this is faulty sensor or intermittent fault.)
(Don't know if that's got anything to do with anything, but seems good to get all the facts in.)

The car is a 52 plate, 205 HDi (2 litre)


Any help/ideas is greatly appreciated.

[bettyswollocks]

Diagnostics is a must first.

[frankie406]

have you checked clutch slave cylinder has it pushed through rubber casket?
engine probaly not start because parts maybe broken inside clutch housing and jamming fly wheel? i had same problem last week on 406. my clutch guide shaft broke an clutch fork mangled and pushed out slave cylinder casket.
and broke linkage too. hope this helps

[danielr]

Originally Posted by bettyswollocks

Diagnostics is a must first.

will hopefully be able to tell you what (if anything) the car is saying tomorrow, need to find my lexia first, I've spent most of the afternoon tidying up the garage still havn't located the old biscuit tin that I've been keeping it in.

Originally Posted by frankie406

have you checked clutch slave cylinder has it pushed through rubber casket?
engine probaly not start because parts maybe broken inside clutch housing and jamming fly wheel? i had same problem last week on 406. my clutch guide shaft broke an clutch fork mangled and pushed out slave cylinder casket.
and broke linkage too. hope this helps

the slave cylinder seems intact (no leaks/obvious breaks) (viewed from above and below), but I've not taken it off of the car to look properly.

I thought that very same thing (something had come off and jammed inside causing the stall/not starting).

I think I'm going to end up sticking this in a garage, I have got a few tools, but no where near enough tools or expertise to start removing the gearbox to get to the clutch.

Hopefully I'll be able to provide a little more information tomorrow when it's light enough to be poking around on the car again.

[danielr]

ok, found the tin, and found the install discs for planet.

a global test showed up the following faults:

ABS or ESP ECU - intermittent fault rear LH wheel sensor (that'll be the reason that the ABS light has been coming on/off for a little while, so that symptom can be ignored.

Engine ECU - Permenant fault, Crankshaft-Camshaft synchronisation variation in engine speed signal too sudden

Engine ECU Permenant fault, Crankshaft-Camshaft synchronisation, Engine speed sensor and camshaft sensor signal coherance

Engine ECU remote fault, bracke contact signal, no communications

Engine ECU Permenant fault, Airflow meter signal, open circuit or short circuit to earth (this can probably be ignored, I seem to remember that this fault has always been there).

Instrument ECU Remote Internittent fault, Engine speed information incorrect value recieved.

There were some Air conditioning faults too, but I'm goign to assume that they aren't realated!


So the car doesn't seem to realise that there are faults with the clutch (the faults are definitly there, the pedal isn't responsive and the clutch doesn't engage).
but the car is deeply unhappy.

I'd imagine that these are faults that I caused trying to drive without a clutch. -I'd like to just clear them and see if the car starts, however, since there are so many faults, -and I don't know for sure that clearing the faults will clear them, I've decided not to clear any, so that the moment the car still doesn't start, I'll get a garage opinion.

the car goes in on Tuesday, I'll update with their prognosis in case anyone is interested.

[danielr]

ok, an update... might not be that helpful to anyone reading later with simillar problems as I've got information from the garage second hand from my father.

the relevant faults were these:

Engine ECU - Permenant fault, Crankshaft-Camshaft synchronisation variation in engine speed signal too sudden

Engine ECU Permenant fault, Crankshaft-Camshaft synchronisation, Engine speed sensor and camshaft sensor signal coherance

Instrument ECU Remote Internittent fault, Engine speed information incorrect value recieved.


These faults indicate that there is a problem in that the sensor on the crankshaft and the sensor on the cam shaft are not aligned, reading around online this can mean that the timing belt has slipped a little. I believe that this is the reason that the engine would not start.

Engine ECU remote fault, break contact signal, no communications

however this fault means that there is no communication from the sensor.



so here is the problem.

the clutch had broken up inside the housing and had broken the sensor, I can only assume that the sensor must have either been hit more than once, or the part that hit it and broke it was metal (as it's a hall effect sensor), hence the ECU got the signal that the flywheel was close to the sensor in a way that it shouldn't have been as there wasn't a corresponding signal from the camshaft sensor, (they were out of coherance). and then the sensor was destroyed. (surely must have been in this order to give a reading and then give no reading as it was broken.)


all other faults listed were completely unrelated.


so the pedal felt wrong as the clutch was broken internally (in the clutch housing), (I can only assume that the fork had nothing to press onto as that was rattling round the bell hosing.)
the friction material was intact (which is why the car would still move when turned over in gear.)

The hydraulic cylinders were fine. not replaced.


in the end I've had a new clutch and a new camshaft sensor. total cost a little over £330

not too bad when on ebay the clutch itself is going for anywhere between 1 and 2 hundred quid on it's own and the sensor another 20 on top of that.